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Fan Mission: The Transaction by Sotha (2011/03/04)


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Poll: Fan Mission: The Transaction by Sotha (2011/03/04) (73 member(s) have cast votes)

Gameplay: Enjoyment. Fun duration. Smooth flow, ect. Versus Bugs. Frustration, Boredom, framelag

  1. Poor (2 votes [2.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.74%

  2. Tolerable (2 votes [2.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.74%

  3. Good (14 votes [19.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.18%

  4. Excellent (38 votes [52.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.05%

  5. Near Perfect (17 votes [23.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.29%

Appearance: Visual pleasure, lighting, visual style, deduct bad texturing etc.

  1. Poor (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Tolerable (1 votes [1.37%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.37%

  3. Good (14 votes [19.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.18%

  4. Excellent (42 votes [57.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.53%

  5. Near Perfect (16 votes [21.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.92%

Story & Text: Story. Text. Briefing. Graphic storytelling

  1. Poor (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Tolerable (1 votes [1.37%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.37%

  3. Good (8 votes [10.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.96%

  4. Excellent (34 votes [46.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.58%

  5. Near Perfect (30 votes [41.10%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.10%

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#176 Twitch

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 12:57 AM

It's my opinion that the bare minimum should be that you can complete Expert without buying anything at the start, with 0 knockouts, and 0 stealth score. I really would love it if every map were completable (though very hard) with 0 stealth score, 0 knockouts, 100% loot, on expert, with no starting gear but your lockpicks.


I hereby grant you, Twitch, the Glenham Tower Climbing Award!

#177 V-Man339

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 01:51 AM

It's my opinion that the bare minimum should be that you can complete Expert without buying anything at the start, with 0 knockouts, and 0 stealth score. I really would love it if every map were completable (though very hard) with 0 stealth score, 0 knockouts, 100% loot, on expert, with no starting gear but your lockpicks.

Naked runs aren't going to be the mentality of a lot of map makers, just as it wasn't with the old Thief 1 and 2 levels, something I think I'm getting increasingly understanding of.

 

That said I'm still curious as to whether Sotha actually expected anybody to do a no knockout run of this level with stealth score 0.

The church honestly struck me with it's guard placement, puzzle placement and rescue objective as something I was supposed to knock everyone out while I navigated, not something he expected to be ghosted.

 

Was that safe spot in the treasury intentional, Sotha? And if so, what about the rescue with only one KO? I'm generally questioning how much of what I did was even within your expectations of feasibility because of just how difficult this level was to do a solid run of.


I like to record difficult stealth games, and right now you wonderful people are the only ones delivering on that front.
Click here for the crappy channel where that happens.


#178 Springheel

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 09:02 AM

It's my opinion that the bare minimum should be that you can complete Expert without buying anything at the start, with 0 knockouts, and 0 stealth score. 

 

 

If the mapper makes that possible, then how much easiler does it become when you have equipment and use your tools?

 

I think Sotha's view, and mine, is that if you can get through the map without having to use any of your equipment, then it's too easy.  Players shouldn't have to tie one hand behind their back to artificially challenge themselves...the game should be challenging on its own.


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#179 Twitch

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 04:41 AM

No, I just think the map should be completable naked, but just barely. I'm just fine with 100% loot requiring starting equipment, but doing it naked should require impeccable skill and finding basically every secret for the equipment it contains.


I hereby grant you, Twitch, the Glenham Tower Climbing Award!

#180 demagogue

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 05:21 AM

The classic ghosting rules forbid equipment use to do it officially. (They call using equipment 'chemical ghosting') I think ideally an FM should make it very very difficult to do, but still possible after 20+ attempts. So I agree with you to that extent.
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#181 Sotha

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 10:26 AM

Interesting discussion here.

My philosophy is relatively simple, really.

The TDM mission is a sea of light with islands of darkness. The player is supposed to make interesting/exciting dashes from island of darkness to the next one while the guards look the other way.

Not all islands are so close that the player can move between them safely. The player is required to occasionally use boats (tools) to move safely. Or they could risk it without tools, but that is very dangerous. Or there might be a clever way to circumvent it, but that is not always guaranteed. There are areas of high risk and low risk. Some calm safe havens, too.

A good really good map has it all: calm areas, tough areas, impossible area (without tools). The mappers job is to present as many different and interesting possibilities to the player to freely choose how to proceed. But make sure the decisions have consequences.

That's the technical gameplay philosophy. Of course a good map needs a good plot, some gossip and a reason why the player is there. And aesthetics, but that's less important to me than gameplay or plot.

Some people will agree with me and some people will disagree. It is okay. There are many ways to play a TDM FM and all the ways are correct. I guess the same applies to FM design, too.
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#182 V-Man339

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 12:38 AM

Interesting discussion here.

My philosophy is relatively simple, really.

The TDM mission is a sea of light with islands of darkness. The player is supposed to make interesting/exciting dashes from island of darkness to the next one while the guards look the other way.

Not all islands are so close that the player can move between them safely. The player is required to occasionally use boats (tools) to move safely. Or they could risk it without tools, but that is very dangerous. Or there might be a clever way to circumvent it, but that is not always guaranteed. There are areas of high risk and low risk. Some calm safe havens, too.

A good really good map has it all: calm areas, tough areas, impossible area (without tools). The mappers job is to present as many different and interesting possibilities to the player to freely choose how to proceed. But make sure the decisions have consequences.

That's the technical gameplay philosophy. Of course a good map needs a good plot, some gossip and a reason why the player is there. And aesthetics, but that's less important to me than gameplay or plot.

Some people will agree with me and some people will disagree. It is okay. There are many ways to play a TDM FM and all the ways are correct. I guess the same applies to FM design, too.

I'm tempted to make a joke about how this illuminates on why your maps are unique, so I will.

I have to say that your maps are the only ones that challenge me, Sotha, but in this case I'd say that there almost wasn't enough boats, and your islands were far too small with far too many noise traps in that ocean of light.

 

Damned solid concept, though, and I love the optional objective.

 

I'm actually still curious if you actually expected anybody to bother doing what I did, though.


Edited by V-Man339, 03 February 2016 - 01:09 AM.

I like to record difficult stealth games, and right now you wonderful people are the only ones delivering on that front.
Click here for the crappy channel where that happens.





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