Seasons Contest Entry : Winter Harvest by Shadowhide

[PranQster]

mission was updated to 1.1,see first post

 

mission was already version 1.1 before I even saw it or downloaded it.

[Shadowhide]

1.1 version doesn't have book bug

[Nielsen74]

I also had trouble with...

 

the abandoned church. I went in there and found nothing, saw nothing, heard no one. I approached the tomb from all directions, looking for loot or a lever or switch... nothing. So I left and wandered around the forest again. Found the cemetery and saw that I need to find a pagan orb somewhere. Wandered around the forest until I was certain I had seen everything. I finally decided to use noclip and fly around the forest and found nothing new. Shrugged my shoulders and came here to read spoilers. I now read rumour of a revenant in the abandoned church.

 

I'll now load the game again and see if I can do anything more after reading the spoilers.

 

I had the same experience so I gav up!

There´s no clear (or even uclear) sens of what to do at the start and it´s not getting better after playing 10/15 or 20 minutters

 

I can NOT recoment anyone to play this mission!

[Shadowhide]

 

I expected this kind of reaction

 

 

[Outlooker]

Well, I'm no drug user, but this felt a bit like a fairytale on acid.

Certainly quite different from usual mission approaches.

 

Rough around the edges, but then quite atmospheric at times.

 

Probably a decent start to become a mapper, though.

 

However, I felt the story/background/motivational guide thing was very weak.

Do that, go there, find that, BOSSFIGHT (you could'nt go around or BJ) - for some reason it felt a bit like a shooter or World of Warcraft to me there, mission goals felt like pretexts, not personally motivated.

 

 

If you pardon the question, Shadowhide, but how old are you ?

 

What remains: Short and rather simple, a little bit weird mission with the most beauty-full winter forest in DM so far.

With nice extra features like spoken conversations , but not much sneaking.

A light snack, so to speak, but it rests well.

[Thiefette]

Thanks for the tip,I will control vocals loud level this method in my next fm.I think vocals in this mission is hearable enough

 

 

Sorry Shadowhide but as I pointed out in my last post,

 

voices are still being drowned out and if a person is already frustrated from running around and not knowing to talk to anyone than they are very easy to miss. If you miss them the first time they aren't repeated again - frustrating. Very few people read spoilers before they play to even know to talk to anyone in the woods.

 

 

 

Edited because I tried to be nice, got frustrated and forgot spoilers. Sorry.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Thiefette

[PranQster]

1.1 version doesn't have book bug

 

Ok. The version I downloaded yesterday from your first post turned out to be 1.0. I thought I had received 1.1 because your post said version 1.1 (critical bug fixed). I guess the link to the file had not yet been updated at that time even though your post had. I downloaded it again and there is a different byte count than the one I got yesterday, plus the darkmod.txt file shows the 1.1 version. Will play it again in a couple days.

[grayman]

Congratulations on releasing your first map, Shadowhide.

 

Unfortunately, my older computer is incapable of playing it, so it will sit on the shelf until I've bought a new one.

 

 

 

You need to work on your visportaling. After barely being able to move inside the starting cabin, I wondered about whether you had visportaled the first door. Turning on visportal debugging in the game showed me a vast collection of green (open) vps, including the one on the first door when it was closed. I even had a collection of green visportals following me around; I don't know what was causing that.

 

I opened the map in DR and noticed that--at least around the starting area--you haven't placed your door visportals correctly. The visportal face should be embedded in the door, not next to it.

 

Did you beta this mission? It helps to have at least two people test missions before you release them.

 

 

 

Good luck with future missions.

[Trickster]

Congrats on release.

 

 

IMHO not as well executed that "other" maps, due bugs, thus my accordingly lower votes. But otherwise i enjoyed playing, liked some moments. Sure some betatesting may help next time.

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

[pusianka]

I haven't played mission so far. I rather wait till 5 missions show up and then make a marathon but is it really this bad? I know SH wasn't very nice in the past but it seems that this mission is quite unenjoyable. I mean is it worse then first FMs by other authors? If so then in what way exactly?

[DeTeEff]

I haven't played mission so far. I rather wait till 5 missions show up and then make a marathon but is it really this bad? I know SH wasn't very nice in the past but it seems that this mission is quite unenjoyable. I mean is it worse then first FMs by other authors? If so then in what way exactly?

 

 

It's not easy to tell you without spoil anything, but the map is unconventional to say the least. It would need some explanation what to do and the premises the player have. Because the briefing is untimed it gets difficult to get a grip on what to do. It's very basic things that a more throughout B-testing phase would have worked out.

 

My first (when I write this) only released map, Betrayal, suffered badly performance wise, partly from bad portalling (B-tester Bikerdude fixed a lot, thanks ) but also from a bit too many AI. My story was also weak and kinda out of place for the TDM-setting...

[Baddcog]

I haven't played mission so far. I rather wait till 5 missions show up and then make a marathon but is it really this bad? I know SH wasn't very nice in the past but it seems that this mission is quite unenjoyable. I mean is it worse then first FMs by other authors? If so then in what way exactly?

 

I haven't tried it yet but it just sounds like the issues are technical things that can probably be worked out.

 

From what I gather:

 

1- people don't know there is a lot of ai interaction, not a bad thing, just not standard so if the mission really requires it players need to know before they push play.

 

2-optimizing, maybe vis-portalling isn't correct. RTC was the same way on the first release so most likely this one could be improved performance wise too.

 

I honestly didn't read any posts that made me feel like the posters were trying to be mean or spiteful in anyway, just explaining the issues. In fact there were quite a few nice comments about how it looks.

[brethren]

My experience with this FM:

 

Briefing - didn't catch much of the backstory, because the text often scrolled by too fast to read.

 

Objectives - Completely useless. These are supposed to guide the player on how to proceed, they don't. They might as well not even be there the way they are written.

 

By the way, the English on both of these was awful, there's no way with so many English speaking taffers around that this should happen.

 

Swam in the pond thing near the beginning of the mission, couldn't get out. Died.

 

Figured out only through trial and error that the AI are friendly. And funny thing, they speak perfect English!

 

Wandered around the forest a bit, found some buildings, a graveyard with a cryptic sign about an orb, but not much else. Nothing happened.

 

(I know it sounds radical, but maybe there should actually be pathways to each building and other locations that humans normally would travel to?)

 

With no idea what to do, and basically no clues, I gave up. Maybe I'll read some spoilers on how to proceed. Then again, maybe not.

 

This from the guy who is so critical of other, far more coherent FMs? Unbelievable.

 

[peispud]

With the exception of wandering through the overly dense and under-lit woods at the beginning, I didn't find this mission hard to follow or play through at all. Trimming those freaking homely trees down or adding some moonlight would go a long ways. The AI and map should be gingerly felt out before beginning anyways. The sound was easily adjusted in the settings. The pond was a slight oversight, but I always do a few saves in case of getting stuck anyways, plus there's always the noclip option. The objectives could have been a little better worded, but I found the cut scenes and change of locations quite enjoyable. All-in-all, an excellent first mission.

[STiFU]

Ok, this really was something different and it was kinda enjoyable and interesting, as it played more like an adventure, than Thief really. Although having a pretty huge forest to walk though, it was very linear (There's only one way in succeeding) and I even winded up in a dead-end (Not having grapped the valuable when I had the chance). Dead-ends should never be part of a game, so this is bad design in my eyes.

 

The seasonal theme was captured well and the ending had a nice touch to it.

 

As far as visuals are concerned, the lighting is just way off. At the beginning I had to tweak the postprocessing settings in order to actually see something and at the end, I had to revert the changes again, because everything was overly lit. Also the saturation of colored lights was a lot too high, for my liking. Aside from that, graphics were ok-ish mostly. Too bad story telling and visuals go in the same category, as I quite liked the story telling in your FM. But together with visuals and audio, it just sums up to three stars.

[Baal]

Shadowhide, are you planning on fixing the issues and releasing a new version?

We are not overly critical because you were so in the past. The problems should really be addressed because they can ruin an otherwise good first mission.

 

 

For the ghost conversation, a smaller trigger, that can't be activated outside of the range of the speaker, could be enough. The player could still miss it entirely though.

 

[fllood]

I'm stuck. How I'm supposed to leave the first room

after been teleported

without the door unopenable and without alerting the door guard?

[Bikerdude]

This from the guy who is so critical of other, far more coherent FMs? Unbelievable.

I would like to believe that's in SH's case its a culture language thing.. not intentional...?

[OrbWeaver]

Here's a sample of what adjustments you can make.

 

Any particular reason to be suggesting +10 volume values in those shaders? As far as I am aware from the previous investigations into the volume keyword with respect to ambient sounds, positive volume increases are unhelpful and don't work the way they are expected to (unless the "unclamped" keyword is also used), but perhaps the situation is different for conversations.

[stumpy]

s_volume values go from -60 = silent to 0 = default sound or very loud.

 

to get out the first room

 

 

get crown from under bed, the door then opens, if the guard outside is facing door when you open it and your in the light then you end up dead. so save before getting crown.

 

[SiyahParsomen]

I finished the mission. That a nice one for your inception!

 

However there are some critical bugs.

 

 

First bug is about the revenant. You should definitely fix it. Since I don't have any weapons, I also creeped close to walls. That black revenant appeared then dissappeared suddenly. I didn't understand anything but some horror factor. In my second try, I walked straight ahead to him although he's armed and I'm unarmed! Then talked with him and understood what to do next. Second bug is about the final boss. I used all my fire arrows and missed only 2 broadhead arrows but he didn't die! I noclipped and killed him with blackjack lol.

 

Best moments were teleporting between totally different time and places. I really liked them. Conversations were good too. The final teleporting reminded me inception for somehow. Maybe because of collapsing. That was good too.

 

If you had fixed those bugs, polished visuals and sounds a little bit, included more readables and added more AI and and and.... it could be REALLY! awesome mission. But still it's good imo. Since this is your first try I didn't go harsh on voting.

 

 

Thanks for the effort.

 

Most importantly, at the end, I KOed the damn horse mistakenly then mission was failed. And I was like......

Edited May 12, 2011 by SiyahParsomen

[Mortem Desino]

Any particular reason to be suggesting +10 volume values in those shaders? As far as I am aware from the previous investigations into the volume keyword with respect to ambient sounds, positive volume increases are unhelpful and don't work the way they are expected to (unless the "unclamped" keyword is also used), but perhaps the situation is different for conversations.

Now that I think about, there is no good reason.

 

I lightly compressed and normalized those conversation OGGs to 0 dB anyways. They're not getting an ounce louder.

[STiFU]

to get out the first room

 

 

get crown from under bed, the door then opens, if the guard outside is facing door when you open it and your in the light then you end up dead. so save before getting crown.

 

Ahhh, so that's how it's supposed to be done.

I just alerted the guard (by accident) and he came in, resulting in me not being able to finish the mission once I teleported back, because I didn't grab the crown.

 

[Komag]

Just played this map.

 

Good:

- dark forest first impressions

- view of the pond

- view of the initial cabin interior

- red spider pet

- "conversations"

- view of swamp

- view of castle hallways

- view of castle library

- interaction in prison

- boss special effects

- performance was fine for me

 

Bad:

- boring buildings

- hard to climb out of pond (can climb on rocks)

- nothing to find in pond

- key-hunt

- nonsense story and objectives

- boring church

- no loot/gear in broken attic area (can reach by hauling crates and jump-mantling)

- boring empty building in forest

- can't hear man in swamp

- beside the one book, nothing else to find in library, no readables, no loot, no secrets, NOTHING

- misaligned wood beam textures (esp in library when community mentioned the need to fix them months ago from screenshots)

- duke-it-out boss battle with ridiculous overpowered boss

- washed out light at the end

 

 

A good noobie effort I think, I'll put it that way.

[fllood]

Congrats to your first release Shadowhide!

 

Find my detailed thoughts in the spoiler:

 

 

 

The good

 

* Different setting. That's always a matter of opinion of course! but while I like any classic Thief style FMs that try to be different in setting are always welcomed to me. It was nice for a change to play a little fantasy tale instead of hide and sneak. I like that.

* The very saturated lighting colors. They fit the fantasy setting imo. I liked them. Specially the use of blue colors.

* The friendly spider

* Conversations

* Different locations

* I liked the individual cells of the small prison and their visuals, the starting hut, the broken architecture of the room where the dead thief is found. And also the look of the library. (I'm not that critical about things like a few misaligned textures or similar minor oversight)

* Some few nice details like the "Thank You" on the grave of the pagan after releasing the world from winter.

* Story idea, BUT ... (see below)

 

What can be improved

 

* Some briefing texts had been too quick. I did have to reload three times to got them fully read.

* Briefing should have more info: Why I'm here? Who are these guys I'm supposed taking to? Do I know them?

* I don't like starting a FM standing within a bed.

* The wind blowing sound in the wood is *very* repetitive and much too loud, very annoying. Do consider changing that sound. (the much more subtle wind sound outside the castle is much better)

* Couldn't understand many of the conversations as of loud ambient sound (had to reload multiple times)

* Wind ambient sound are in the buildings at the same loudness level as outside even with closed doors (not closing Portals?)

* The abandoned church felt too empty. Some broken rotten stuff would have filled that emptyness.

* I wondered where that debris came from in the corridor to the prison?? If you put in cave-in rubble the roof should also be collapsed.

* A few things unconneted to the "objectives" would have been great to find: some papers to read about the people and places, something in the area behind that pool, some loot ... yes! it's so satisfying to hear that lovely loot sound even it must not always be an loot objective alongside that.

* I didn't like how the castle was designed. I do not speak about the visuals. These are fine enough here. But about gameplay: Linearity might not always be bad on its own. But in this FM it just felt like having four rooms build around what you suppose the player to do and not being in an castle. At least two or three more rooms unconntected to any objective would have been nice. possibly with some background about that castle and that evil dude.

* One can fail the FM if not playing it the way you had exactly in mind! For example missing the crown when escaping the room in a way you did not design and expect the player to do. I did.

* Conversation was not triggered in the church when I was hide- and sneaking along the walls. I got stuck behind the table in the first room in the castle (reload). I got stuck in a snow dune in the area before the boss fight (reload). and yes, after five minutes I finally managed to escape that "pool of doom" ... just seconds before giving in to the reload button!

 

About Objectives

 

This mission is 100% railroaded as mentioned: You can only proceed after completing the tasks you set up for the player to complete and cannot do something interesting meanwhile additionally. If one cannot understand half of the conversations a player easily is lost. In the first room of the castle I didn't came up with what I was supposed to do at all. I didn't see the crown. So I alerted the guard by purpose, escaped while he was searching and later failed the mission because of missing the special loot. Not even knowing why.

For all that reason it's beneficial for story-telling type of FM's to add new objectives when they come into play, like: find the house key, bury the body of the ghost, get the book of nature, ... Sotha's Transaction does this very well!

 

About the Story Telling

 

Though I like the idea of the AI conversation and applaud the efforts that went into it (also good job MD!) the story-telling is much deficient. The setting is very promising but was barely fleshed out. It felt clued together to bring in different locations and various (seemingly) unconnected people. While I like the idea of so different settings in one map the two different parts felt very disjointed. There is absolutely no background for what this is all about:

- Who are these two "friendly" guys and what is my attitude to them (briefing text, diaries...)?

- Who is that dead guy in the caved-in building? What was he about to steal? How did he died here?

- Why the hell is that guy at the cart standing in the midst of the wood the whole night in winter?

- Who is this pagan I'm supposed to rescue and why should I do so? - why not hide an old book with history of the land, old memories of former inhabitant about the pagan written on paper or stones, etcetera...)?

- What happened to that guy in the church?

- How are the pagan and that winter dude are connected?

- And who is that evil wizard? Why did he brought the winter?

- What's the story about that crown being evil? Why is that room magically locked and why does that crown opens the door?

... with so many questions just being unanswered the player practically is given no reason to feel connected to all of that - or in this FM get rich at least - but just continue playing for curiosity what next....

 

 

 

If you will flesh out the story details the player will become emotionally connected to that and the people/AI's so that the objectives, world and playthrough will be much more immersed.

 

I think you had some good ideas.... the mission has a good premise, ok visuals, and also some enjoyable moments. But also bugs, some bad sound choices, a few poor map-design decisions, no story background and two or three moments of frustration (to me). Nothing that couldn't be fixed and improved in an updated version...!

 

back to "Winter's coming" Game of Thrones ...

Edited May 13, 2011 by fllood