A simple push...

[Springheel]

eh I knew it! You're tryin to have a revenge after my post in inventor scientists topic.

 

Actually, I have no idea what you were talking about in that post.

 

All this talk of new tools that don't do anything significantly different from existing tools just strikes me as feature creep. I'm just waiting for someone to bring up slippers the thief can put on to move silently, and a blowgun with poison darts. Those two usually come up by now.

[rich_is_bored]

I want moss covered rocket skates.

[pusianka]

Actually, I have no idea what you were talking about in that post.

 

All this talk of new tools that don't do anything significantly different from existing tools just strikes me as feature creep. I'm just waiting for someone to bring up slippers the thief can put on to move silently, and a blowgun with poison darts. Those two usually come up by now.

 

that's some pretty much fucked Example ideas... Comparing to this simple feature that significantly does a lot! For the gameplay. Now this feature is really not a bad idea because it's not like arrow or a blackjack. It does not hurt anyone inside the room but can be helpful when running away and I pretty much have sometimes such moments when I just need to get out real fast(don't you?). Ofc it can be deadly when pushing off the high edge but it's up to a person to decide if it makes sense.

[rich_is_bored]

But it doesn't produce results that cannot be accomplished through some other means. That's the point he's raising.

 

Given the existance of the shortsword, broadheads, blackjacks, and flashbombs, why would someone choose to push? What advantage does it offer over other options and does this advantage negate the existence of those other options?

 

For instance, if I wanted to make a quick escape I currently would go with a flashbomb but if I could just push AI instead, I don't think I'd ever bother since pushing is free.

[Fidcal]

First, it's nice to have variety and choices even if the same result is achieved.

 

Second, I can think of situations where different things would be appropriate.

 

You are in a brightly lit room with a single entrance and just about to go out when in comes a guard a few paces in front of you. He quickly draws his sword and is advancing.

 

1. You run at him to push him he slashes you and you take damage. You push him to one side. He staggers for a few seconds but is after you within a few seconds. (it might be that pushing fails when an AI is alert anyway)

2. You drop a flashbomb and run by him while he's blinded.

 

 

A dark empty courtyard is overlooked by a brightly lit balcony with a drainpipe to the roof you want to climb. But the balcony is patrolled to frequently by two or three guards. You enter the balcony but are surprised to find one guard already there near the edge looking out over the courtyard and blocking the way to the drainpipe.

 

1. You could KO him but no time to hide the body. Maybe KO's not allowed.

2. Maybe flashbomb him but he's facing the other way as you enter.

3. Push him off the edge and climb up the drainpipe before another guard comes along.

[Sotha]

First, it's nice to have variety and choices even if the same result is achieved.

 

Second, I can think of situations where different things would be appropriate.

 

Nice stories. But it eventually boils down to:

 

But it doesn't produce results that cannot be accomplished through some other means.

 

All this talk of new tools that don't do anything significantly different from existing tools just strikes me as feature creep.

 

Anyway, I think blackjacking already covers the 'sneak-behind-and-do-something-nasty' game mechanic. Why would the player push the AI, if KO'ing is possible?

 

+

 

The work required to implement this.

 

Now, if someone else did all the work: a mapper would make custom assets for his map that would make the thief a bully that can push people around, I wouldn't complain. I don't think it would be healthy to have such a feature built in TDM gameplay-wise, because it would remove the need to use equipment cleverly, like rich and me pointed out.

 

It would be interesting for a single different FM, but I would not want this to happen for every FM out there.

 

I would rather see the explosive mines work properly than adding something new like this.

[pusianka]

Still I think it does a lot because:

 

1. You don't have the infinitive number of gadgets.

2. You can make people fall off the edge which varies the gameplay.

3. It's very good when running away and encountering a guard in a narrow hallway or doors.

4. You can combine it like: you push a guy into the wardrobe or a room, flash him and (b)lock the doors.

[Outlooker]

This is a stealth game. Combat is usually not even secondary, rather tertiary.

Enemies should be way more powerful than the player, otherwise you get a shooter or beat em up game like DMoMM.

Such brawling stuff is inelegant.

 

A thief should be no robber. Observe, analyze, sneak, outsmart, use clever tools. Thats the way it should work.

 

 

Imagine that guy in heavy armor, the woman for scale of the cat burglar thief in size.

Now the thief starts pushing [and wishes for a fork lift, which would be another thing to implement].

 

 

[Fidcal]

I rarely use the sword, blackjack, almost never use flashbombs or mines. I probably would rarely ever use push. But I'm happy for all the above options to be available for others. The player character is who you want him to be. Some play heavy and some soft. Anyway, push seems more of a sneaky trick than combat. It might be proportional to mass so trying to push a heavily-armoured thug might not work anyway. Perhaps it would be proportional to player speed too. It would need some skill to determine if you could run at a big guy before he hears you and alerts and braces himself.

[rich_is_bored]

The problem everyone should be addressing is why anyone would bother buying any of the items on the load out screen if they can push people at no cost and achieve the same result. Variety is good but not if it's at the expense of everything else.

[Springheel]

Variety is only good if it actually adds something to the game. And even then, too much variety can simply overwhelm players and make it difficult to make choices.

 

Other classic examples that come up over and over are the garrote and chloroform. While they might add variety, they are redundant when the blackjack already exists.

 

It would be fine if there was a mission that used them instead of the blackjack, but that would be a lot of extra work for something used once or twice.

 

As for pushing, I too have felt that it would be neat to be able to push an AI off a ledge. But every time I play a mission I think of something else it would be neat to do...dress up as a guard, hide under a bed, etc.

[Fidcal]

Guess we all must agree to disagree and no way to see each others point of view.

 

I should emphasise that I personally am not *anxious* for this feature - just saying, I see no gameplay objection to it nor indeed to 50 more weapons and tools choices. I see it as low priority compared to the hundreds of other more important tasks waiting to be done.

 

As for hiding under the bed I long ago more than once proposed we should have crawl (very low crouch) and have wasted time emulating it in a previous and a future FM to good effect. It would have been little work to set up originally. But a real crawl now would be a map-breaker.

[Outlooker]

Guess we all must agree to disagree and no way to see each others point of view.

 

I should emphasise that I personally am not *anxious* for this feature - just saying, I see no gameplay objection to it nor indeed to 50 more weapons and tools choices. I see it as low priority compared to the hundreds of other more important tasks waiting to be done.

 

As for hiding under the bed I long ago more than once proposed we should have crawl (very low crouch) and have wasted time emulating it in a previous and a future FM to good effect. It would have been little work to set up originally. But a real crawl now would be a map-breaker.

While being a nice idea amongst many others, hiding under the bed is not even necessary to hardwire into Darkmod I think.

Not all beds would provide hiding space anyway.

But then any mission author could make any bed frobable and have the screen go black for a few seconds and reemerge from a viewpoint from under the bed, being not able to move but staying perfectly hidden, seeing only AIs legs.

Kind of static camvator or whatever. The mod toolset is crafted fine enough to make such things nicely possible for mission authors.

[Sotha]

hiding under the bed...

 

This would require new intelligence for AI. If the AI chaces you and sees you hiding under the bed, what can the AI do? Throw rocks at you? They hit the bed. JHit you with sword? You're too far away.

 

Plus our bed models do not have bottoms...

[nbohr1more]

I agree with Rich.

 

Focusing on a limited set of variables and making them work well together is a key aspect of good game design. Leaving the set of play variables open-ended is bound to give mappers problems establishing an intended narration and play focus.

 

To exaggerate:

 

Why would you sneak past 3 guards to capture a trinket when you can fly around the map all day in a hang-glider?

 

If you offer too many choices the players will not follow through in the intended manner and will likely get stuck in places where the mission's prior activities are supposed to culminate at a puzzle or the end of a quest.

 

I suppose, as a toolset provider, that you could argue that "mappers should be given as many choices as possible, it's up to them to fashion these limits". I would suggest that having a great core set of play-tested elements lends a quality and consistency for mappers who use the defacto stuff.

[Shadowhide]

oh god,please no

 

pushing is completely bad idea ! what about climbing gloves ?

 

 

[Springheel]

This would require new intelligence for AI. If the AI chaces you and sees you hiding under the bed, what can the AI do? Throw rocks at you? They hit the bed. JHit you with sword? You're too far away.

 

This is precisely why we didn't include crawling when it was initially brought up the grand old days of early development.

[pusianka]

Gosh... Pushing can be aggro or can be stealthy. These things should be up to player to decide after all he makes his choice already when choosing the game difficulty. Dont kill anyone, don't knock out anyone, don't hurt civilians. I don't get why you people just keep treating things one way around.

[Fidcal]

It's a decent feature proposal. It's different to other similar features. It adds interest and variety. But unlikely to happen.

[pusianka]

Ehm Fid, I've never done that before but is it possible to open guard model in some other program and animated by myself?

[Fidcal]

Animations are in af files in tdm_ai_base01.pk4. It's a skilled task to create and modify animations though.

[Springheel]

It's not just animations. You'd also need code to determine when to call them, and to give the player the ability to push in the first place.

[pusianka]

I do realise that but don't take away from me the fun of animating guard

[rich_is_bored]

Just for clarification you'll be dealing with .md5mesh and .md5anim files. .af files are declarations used for setting up a ragdoll.

[pusianka]

Thank you!