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The Dark Mod Standalone (Doom3 not required)


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#1 darkdude

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 04:49 AM

Everything removed.

Edited by darkdude, 24 June 2011 - 06:06 AM.


#2 Tels

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 05:01 AM

:wub: Awesome. Does it work on Linux, too?
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#3 darkdude

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 05:22 AM

I don't think so. It might work. I'll try and make one I'll let you know if I can do it. I don't have linux myself though so I can't test a linux version

#4 darkdude

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 05:27 AM

In linux you could use the normal doom3 1.3.1 program but if you tried to run a mission you would be asked for a CD-Key. So at the moment all the benefits for linux users at the moment is less disk usage until I can make a new linux app (which I doubt I'll be able to do) linux users will need a cd-key. (which really sucks :()

#5 Tels

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:06 AM

In linux you could use the normal doom3 1.3.1 program but if you tried to run a mission you would be asked for a CD-Key. So at the moment all the benefits for linux users at the moment is less disk usage until I can make a new linux app (which I doubt I'll be able to do) linux users will need a cd-key. (which really sucks :()


Yeah, unless you already have one, then at least you save some diskspace.

As for the Win version, that is really great, anyway! Good work! Now I think we could see if we can remove the need for the additional files by replacing the assets one-by-one?
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#6 darkdude

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:10 AM

Now I think we could see if we can remove the need for the additional files by replacing the assets one-by-one?


Good idea. Anyway is there a chance this could be an optional alternative to the official releases?

#7 Melan

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:26 AM

I think this may be an "after the source code" kind of thing?

The issue with a standalone, however, is that TDM does use some Doom3 assets: decal textures, animations, AI skeletons (correct me if I am wrong) and some more stuff that's not necessarily engine-related. More than immediately meets the eye.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#8 Sotha

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:27 AM

Er.. wasn't this supposed to be a impossibly tedious task, creating d3 independent tdm?

Is it legal to use d3 demo like this?

Also, how did you know which textures to remove and are you sure the standalone supports all fms? For instance, mapper placed blood decals (decals/splat*) are d3 assets, not darkmod/decals/splat*.

I'm sorry if I sound doubtful, but this sounds way too good to be true.

If this is legal and will work, mapper guidelines to facilitate full support to the standalone must be laid in immediately. Updating the existing missions to support this is also essential.
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#9 darkdude

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:31 AM

Also, how did you know which textures to remove and are you sure the standalone supports all fms? For instance, mapper placed blood decals (decals/splat*) are d3 assets, not darkmod/decals/splat*.


I didn't know which ones to remove. I removed all of them except the blood decals at first. Then checked for missing texture errors and re-inserted those textures. I will probably put in full fm support soon but this was just a test to see if it would work.

#10 darkdude

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:33 AM

EDIT: Double post

Edited by darkdude, 14 June 2011 - 06:34 AM.


#11 Tels

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:40 AM

Good idea. Anyway is there a chance this could be an optional alternative to the official releases?


Definitely, this has always been my dream! (Even tho the rest of the team always asserts that this is an impossible task :D

(Edit: if it is legal to do so, of course. We cannot distribute not-legal pakages. But I cannot answer the question if this is ok atm or not, as I haven't looked exactly how this package was done.)

Btw, I few things I noticed:

* you included doom_events.script - this is contained in TDM and thus overwritten, anyway, so you can simply remove it. * Also the "weapon handgranade" script is included, but I think we do nowhere reference it, so it could be removed, too? If not, could you tell my where it is referenced, so we can remove the reference first?
* strings.lang is something TDM provides, so it can go, too. (We really need to cleanup our version, tho)

@textures: Yeah, a few might be nec. by FMs, but we really should create replacements for these, anyway.

Good work!
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#12 Sotha

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:12 AM

(Edit: if it is legal to do so, of course. We cannot distribute not-legal pakages. But I cannot answer the question if this is ok atm or not, as I haven't looked exactly how this package was done.)


Maybe we should then calm down from the initial excitement and carefully examine this for legality (and other) problems, before going any further. There is no point is seeing a lot of trouble to make the standalone only to see that we cannot use it. Or even worse, draw unwanted copyright problems our way.

Just sayin'... We'd better walk a fine line on this one.

Anyone with D3 demo, please check the license agreement for prohibition of changing the package contents, please?
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#13 Melan

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:15 AM

Replacement textures would not be impossible. The Thief object enhancement pack did a lot of high-res alternatives, for example. It is the trickier, more technical things which are problematic. There are more talented texture artists than people who can, say, rig an animated skeleton.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#14 Tels

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:41 AM

Maybe we should then calm down from the initial excitement and carefully examine this for legality (and other) problems, before going any further. There is no point is seeing a lot of trouble to make the standalone only to see that we cannot use it. Or even worse, draw unwanted copyright problems our way.

Just sayin'... We'd better walk a fine line on this one.


True.

Anyone with D3 demo, please check the license agreement for prohibition of changing the package contents, please?


Apart from the fact that the "license agreement" might not even be a binding document in some/most jurisdictions, changing "the pakage content" cannot be forbidden. After all, what you do is:

* stuff original files from D3 into a ZIP archive and distribute them along with other files

Which is exactly what TDM is doing! We also ship some original files, some of them modified, along with a lot of our own files. I fail to see where the great difference would be :)

In any event, even if the TDM team is not allowed to distribute this, then:

* other people surely will (some idiots bundled the full RoE release with TDM and released them as a torrent...)
* it is a first step on figuring out what we need to replace before we can make a true TDM standalone. That alone is worth a lot :)

In any event, I just committed a patch that cleans up strings/english.lang from all the D3 cruft, and moves a few of our hard-coded strings from the GUI into that file. That will make a stand-alone easier, and also help translating. Other contributions are welcome.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#15 demagogue

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:51 AM

We'll want to look at the license. And look at precedence. Has any other id mod done this before; how did they turn out?

If it's doesn't allow redistributing modifications, then this is something that should be done independently of the core mod without cross-pollination for now (until the open source comes along). So the team shouldn't be distributing it or packaging it with the core mod... Not because it's not wanted but because no one wants to give ZeniMax a reason to send a Cease & Desist notice, but if they did it'd only target the stand-alone version not the core mod. It'd be like a "rogue fan" project the team can't control. But maybe as a demo it'd be fine; really should look at the license.

Even if the license isn't perfect here, it would be good practice for when the open source version does come which will definitely have a friendly license. So you can work on hammering out the technicalities, getting around the assets, rooting out the issues that come up now. That makes it still worth doing.

For missing D3 things, the FMs could package them in themselves, as stand-alone compatible FM versions. I think it's better for the FMs to slide in a few contraband assets than have them in the mod package. And having two FM versions for two TDM branches isn't too crazy. (And the standalone version should work in the vanilla version.)
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#16 Springheel

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:54 AM

Since you actually need the D3 demo, your topic header is rather misleading.

The legal issue isn't what kind of Doom3 you need (demo or full game). The issue is that TDM includes (and thus distributes) a massive number of assets taken directly from the full game.

I didn't know which ones to remove. I removed all of them except the blood decals at first. Then checked for missing texture errors and re-inserted those textures.


So this just deals with textures? Not the models, md5meshes, animations, sounds, particle effects, and .af files? Does it remove the D3 textures that are used on models? Does it address the ones that have been renamed?

Sorry, but I am highly skeptical that this is actually workable, especially in less than two days.
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#17 Springheel

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 08:04 AM

There's also the issue that it's clearly illegal:

2. Permitted New Creation. Subject to the terms and provisions of this Agreement and so long as you fully comply at all times with this Agreement, id SOftware grants to you the non-exclusive and limited right to create for the Software (except any Software code) your own modifications (the 'New Creations") that shall operate only with the SOftware (but not any demo, test, or other version of the Software). You may include within the New Creations certain textures and other imgaes (the "Software Images") from the Software. You shall not create any New Creations that infringe against any third-party right or that are libelous, defamatory, obscene, false, misleading, or otherwise illegal or unlawful. You agree that the New Creations will not be downloaded, shiped, transferred, exported, or re-exported into (or to a national or resient of) any country to which the United States has embargoed goods or to anyone or into any country who/that are prohibited, by applicable law, from receiving such property. You shall not rent, sell, lease, lend, offer on a pay-per-play basis, or otherwise commercially exploit or commercially distribute the New Creations. You are permitted to distribute, without any cost or charge, the New Creations only to other end-users so long as such distribution is not infringing against any third -party right and otherwise is not illegal or unlawful. As noted below, in the event you commit any breach of this Agreement, your license and this Agreement automatically shall terminate, without notice.


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#18 New Horizon

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 09:11 AM

Yeah, definitely not something we can officially support. I'm curious to try it out to see if it does indeed work though. I'm surprised the mod would even start since it requires the 1.3.1 executable...was the demo updated to that?

#19 nbohr1more

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 10:39 AM

This would be like the LAME MP3 encoder.

Technically, the rights holder for the MP3 codec can claim that the distribution of LAME is a violation of their patent.

In practice, LAME only officially provides the Source code except a "missing step" which they provide instructions to others to complete.

Since it's not illegal (yet) to perform the remaining actions on your own private computer, there is nothing the MP3 rights holder can do.

The illegal portion is that many sites host pre-compiled LAME encoders. But it's useless to cease and desist them because so many others would surely compile and host versions and (at worst) all they could do is inspire the creation of tutorials on compiling LAME or the creation of tools that merge the needed components and compile.

So, the only jeopardy is actually shipping the Demo along with the mod package. You can always post a disclaimer that states:

"The standalone package is intended as a hobby tool to demonstrate The Dark Mod. The use of this package without also owning a legal copy of Doom 3 is a violation of the software agreement for the use of the Doom 3 demo."

Edited by nbohr1more, 14 June 2011 - 10:40 AM.

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

http://www.indiedb.c...ds/the-dark-mod

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

#20 OrbWeaver

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 11:30 AM

There's also the issue that it's clearly illegal:


Indeed, although potentially we could be violating the licence already, unless our mirrors are blocking all IPs from Iran, Syria, Cuba etc:

You agree that the New Creations will not be downloaded, shiped, transferred, exported, or re-exported into (or to a national or resient of) any country to which the United States has embargoed goods or to anyone or into any country who/that are prohibited, by applicable law, from receiving such property.


Although I doubt very much id software give two shits about that clause, they just have to put it in to cover their own asses. In fact I doubt such a clause would even be enforceable in court, since there's no conceivable way any project could prevent Iranian nationals from getting hold of it except by distributing it on physical media, in person, with each recipient being carefully vetted for nationality and identity.

#21 Melan

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 11:38 AM

Not to mention preventing random Iranian kids from enjoying Doom3/TDM is a really assholish thing to do (as was the COCOM list when I was little).
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#22 Springheel

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 11:48 AM

So, the only jeopardy is actually shipping the Demo along with the mod package. You can always post a disclaimer that states:


There are two issues here. The legality is the smaller of the two, though not insignificant.

The other issue is the same as it has always been. Even if you can get the mod to actually work with the D3 demo (which I still have my doubts about), you haven't circumvented the issue of all the D3 assets which we use--most of which would not be in the demo.

So we're still stuck with the issue of having to replace hundreds of high quality assets before we could eliminate the need for players to own the full D3 game.


What might be viable here is some kind of hacky "TDM demo" that allows people to try out TDM for free with the acknowledgment that many assets will be missing, and many maps might not work.
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#23 demagogue

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 12:29 PM

Yeah, what we called TDM-lite in another thread. That has its own value.

Anyway, it seems this kind of project should go on separate from the official mod in any event, and IMO it should be mostly about laying the groundwork for the open source version to come.

But for that matter, that groundwork could be laid just with the normal Doom3 exe (esp since the license for the demo apparently doesn't make it any more legit than vanilla D3). It's even better to work with normal D3 now since that's what we'd want to use in the end anyway. When idtech4 goes open source there's no reason to rest on the demo anymore, and it's not even that much longer to wait. So messing with the demo now is kind of a detour. I understand it'd let people play TDM now just from downloading the demo (is that it?). But if a *lot* of work is going to be put into it, they could go ahead and start working to make vanilla Doom3 standalone right now (locally, & separate from the main mod) in anticipation of the final legit product and that'd be better in the end.
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#24 Sotha

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 12:32 PM

Yeah, what we called TDM-lite in another thread. That has its own value.


Hm.. We should just be mindful that TDM-lite wouldn't be glitchy and unpolished due to not-full assets. People might get a poor impression if they played some not fully supported FM's with missing textures and other glitches. Would do just bad for reputation...
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#25 OrbWeaver

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:04 PM

Not to mention preventing random Iranian kids from enjoying Doom3/TDM is a really assholish thing to do (as was the COCOM list when I was little).


And, at least in the UK, being illegal racial discrimination to boot. So yeah, not an issue I see any need to worry about, except for the amusing observation that every D3 mod in existence is potentially violating the letter of the licence.




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