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Translating the TDM GUI


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#51 Briareos H

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 12:44 PM

I meant review the graphical aspect of the various strings. Some of them are much longer than the originals, so I need to know whether I need to shorten them.
As for the french community I agree, I'm posting it on the french forums :)

#52 Tels

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 01:59 PM

I'd be interested in the voice scripts as well.

In the meantime, here's the first version of the french translations. Please review those so I can know whether some of them are too long to fit in the screen.


I will have a look, that was fast! Thank you very much!. Since German also has length problems, I will toy around with making the space in the menu settings *slightly* larger, and see how that looks. Springheel can then possible comment on a screenshot? I think we easily widen the space by 10 pixels left and right and gain 1 or 2 letters per line. Even in English some of the key names (like "MWHEELUP or BACKSPACE") can interfere with the options text on the left...

Edit: I think we can also make a small package that contains the new code, and the new GUI files only, so that translaters can check directly how it looks. But this needs a bit more time, the windows compile is still missing.


BTW, is "plant key" a plant(botanical)-like key or a key for a plant?


The former. (we don't have a model or skin yet, tho, I am working on this)

I'll need the opinion of the french community for some words (e.g 'Builders', 'Lightgem'), so they might end up modified in the next version.

EDIT: link didn't get added?


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#53 Fieldmedic

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 05:11 PM

Should I and Noslak team up and translate into swedish? :laugh:

:ph34r:

I like Empire Total war where you can play as Swedes and they're actually speaking swedish :)

#54 Briareos H

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 07:33 AM

Edit: I think we can also make a small package that contains the new code, and the new GUI files only, so that translaters can check directly how it looks. But this needs a bit more time, the windows compile is still missing.


That would be great. If that proves too complicated, if given temporary access to SVN I definitely would be willing to compile the mod and do all the string shortening by myself.

#55 Tels

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 12:10 PM

That would be great. If that proves too complicated, if given temporary access to SVN I definitely would be willing to compile the mod and do all the string shortening by myself.


I asked grayman to compile the mod for Windows for me, but I made a typo in the revision number :-/ Sorry, it will have to wait a few more hours.

As for the translation, I looked at your work and have a few remarks:

* there is no need to repeat non-translated strings, the script will copy them. Of course, you can add them, but it just eats up space in all.lang and poses the risk that the strings get out-of-sync (if somebody edits the untranslated string #123, they might miss the copy in the french version)
* The "english" version of the language selector is supposed to be in english, the german in german etc. That means the change to the english version should not be done.

I will merge your changes with these modifications, and add these remarkas as comments in the file for the next guy :) Anyway, thanx, I post here once I have a pakage for you to test. Now I need to start the barbeque :)

Edit: You added a space between some of the sentences and the dot/question mark. Is this a french custom? Like "Is this a french custom ?" I'd remove this, not only to be consistent, but also to shorten the texts :)

Another edit :)

You translated one string twice, but funnily with two different string. Which one should I use?

        "#str_02509"    "Veuillez patienter..."
        "#str_02509"    "Veuillez attendre..."

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#56 Briareos H

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:11 PM

* there is no need to repeat non-translated strings, the script will copy them. Of course, you can add them, but it just eats up space in all.lang and poses the risk that the strings get out-of-sync (if somebody edits the untranslated string #123, they might miss the copy in the french version)

Okay I'll keep that in mind for next version.

* The "english" version of the language selector is supposed to be in english, the german in german etc. That means the change to the english version should not be done.

Wouldn't it make more sense if the language selector was the same for every language, containing the name of each language... in its own language? I mean, a person who doesn't speak english and wants to setup a german TDM would sooner search for "Deutsch" than "German".
In any case it was a mistake for me to modify the english section, I agree.

Edit: You added a space between some of the sentences and the dot/question mark. Is this a french custom? Like "Is this a french custom ?" I'd remove this, not only to be consistent, but also to shorten the texts

Correct french typography is to add a non-breaking space before some punctuation signs, namely semicolon, colon, question and exclamation marks. If absolutely necessary, this can be ignored at the risk of looking a bit wierd.

You translated one string twice, but funnily with two different string. Which one should I use?

"Veuillez patienter..." is correct. My bad.

I also made a few typos and I need to change a few words, but that'll wait for the next version.

Edited by Briareos H, 27 June 2011 - 02:13 PM.


#57 Tels

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:22 PM

Okay I'll keep that in mind for next version.


No problem :)

Wouldn't it make more sense if the language selector was the same for every language, containing the name of each language... in its own language? I mean, a person who doesn't speak english and wants to setup a german TDM would sooner search for "Deutsch" than "German".
In any case it was a mistake for me to modify the english section, I agree.


I am a bit torn about this. Imagine you are English and the language selector is always in Chinese - you would never find English again. That's a good question.

Edit: AH I see what you mean. That certainly makes sense, so I think if we chaneg the string in English, and remove the other versions, that should cover it. I'll do it and we can see how it looks. Edit #2: Ah, no, that will not really work, because f.i. the english.lang file cannot contain Russian, or Chinese or Greek, and even if it could, the font for Western Europe would not contain this. So the only thing we can do is there translate the western languages, but leave Russian etc in English. Hohum.

Correct french typography is to add a non-breaking space before some punctuation signs, namely semicolon, colon, question and exclamation marks. If absolutely necessary, this can be ignored at the risk of looking a bit wierd.


Ah, I didn't know that. Correct German (and English AFAIK) is to not add any space (and the punctuation marks are always kept on the same line).

Is the non-breaking space a normal-wide one? Or is it smaller?

I think if we add a ne font anyway, we might re-use some unused character like 0xFF and add a narrow space if that is nec (and/or looks better).

"Veuillez patienter..." is correct. My bad.


Fixed that.

I also made a few typos and I need to change a few words, but that'll wait for the next version.


I am currently prepating a package for you, I will sent a PM once it is uploaded. Thanx!
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#58 Briareos H

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:30 PM

Edit: AH I see what you mean. That certainly makes sense, so I think if we chaneg the string in English, and remove the other versions, that should cover it. I'll do it and we can see how it looks.

Yep, something like "English;Deutsch;Italiano;Français;Polski;Español;Русскйи"

EDIT: Forum doesn't like unicode characters. Adds a weird space.
EDIT2: Ah I get what you mean. Then back to square one :P

Is the non-breaking space a normal-wide one? Or is it smaller?

I think a space smaller than a normal one would be perfect :)

Edited by Briareos H, 27 June 2011 - 02:34 PM.


#59 Tels

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:36 PM

Should I and Noslak team up and translate into swedish? :laugh:

:ph34r:

I like Empire Total war where you can play as Swedes and they're actually speaking swedish :)


If you create a swedish translation, I gladly add Swedish to the menu :D
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#60 Tels

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:42 PM

Yep, something like "English;Deutsch;Italiano;Français;Polski;Español;Русскйи"

EDIT: Forum doesn't like unicode characters. Adds a weird space.


I think it adds a spaceifyoustringtogethertomanylettersatonceandcontinuetodosoforalongtime - bah! It won't for me... :D

EDIT2: Ah I get what you mean. Then back to square one :P


Yeah, I hate non-Unicode apps already :-(

I think a space smaller than a normal one would be perfect :)


Oki, I'll put a reminder to do this in the bug report.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#61 Fieldmedic

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 03:49 PM

I may seem dumb but this translating stems from people finding it hard to play missions because of language difficulties. Isn't readables going to be a huge problem? Or is someone gonna translate into german/italian/russian before release?

#62 Mortem Desino

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 04:13 PM

Well, b'cuz readables are all found in glorified txt files (*.xd), it's easy to edit and release a child pk4 of a mission.

So easy, even Fieldmedic could do it. Oh wait... :mellow:
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#63 Mortem Desino

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 04:27 PM

Or perhaps, even cleaner:
Create a mod-of-a-mod-of-a-mod. You could create an overriding PK4 named "zzzGerman.pk4". Have it contain the German xdata files that override the official mission's xdata. Download and cram that into the FM folder (C:/doom3/return_to_the_city/zzzGerman.pk4)

(The three zzz makes sure the overriding pk4 is alphabetical last. Silly Doom 3. :))
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#64 Fieldmedic

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 04:34 PM

Yes, thank you for that remark, I guess I really am stupid then...

But it just feels like a lot of work and something that will need constant updating...

Are we talking language adjusted vocal sets also?

Edited by Fieldmedic, 27 June 2011 - 04:37 PM.


#65 Briareos H

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 05:38 PM

The perfect situation would be a fully internationalized version of TDM including voicesets with mission releases in multiple languages.
The latter depends on the good will of the author and maybe some of their foreign testers.
The former depends on the translation teams, how much time, hardware and willpower they have :P I must say that in the meantime, a closed captioning system would be fantastic.

And still, having only the TDM interface translated would be quite beneficial for non-speakers that would like to fiddle with the options. Understanding perfectly the written objectives of a FM is not always absolutely necessary.

#66 Mortem Desino

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 05:39 PM

Just meant it as a friendly jab. :( It's a valid concern.

You're absolutely right, though. FM mission translating is rather high-maintenance. As soon as a mission is released, it'll be on the heads of translators to translate the .GUI files for the mission briefings (If applicable), and the xdata for readables. I don't know what to do about objectives, though. That's all inside the .map file.
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#67 Fieldmedic

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 05:49 PM

Jab taken :)

More stupideness! Probably answered earlier in the thread, but is language barriers such a big problem? Are people avoiding other games because they don't understand english? Heck, most of my english was not learned through school, it was learned through computer gaming and Warhammer.

Just a wonder if the gold we get out of this weights up for the time we put into it...

But still, I'm in for translating stuff into swedish, just for fun :)

And I vote for a finnish version too, whatcha say, Sotha? Do the finnish words fit into the spaces? :P

Edited by Fieldmedic, 27 June 2011 - 05:51 PM.


#68 Tels

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 11:41 AM

Just meant it as a friendly jab. :( It's a valid concern.

You're absolutely right, though. FM mission translating is rather high-maintenance. As soon as a mission is released, it'll be on the heads of translators to translate the .GUI files for the mission briefings (If applicable), and the xdata for readables. I don't know what to do about objectives, though. That's all inside the .map file.


At the moment there are only three (two working) ways you can get translated FMs:

* the FM author uses "#str_12345" where this maps to an alerady existing string. This will work for generic words (like "Kitchen") and phrases (like "You are an expert, so don't kill any humans."). However, coming up with all these generic phrases is hard, time-consuming, and it will never be complete. And already existing FMs don't do this, so somebody would have to update them. Oh, and they all need to be translated, just in case some author uses them... I don't think this approach will work.
* The FM author uses the "#str_12345" method, but defines his own strings in an FM specific file. Anybody who wants to translate the mission just either creates an "add_on" to the FM with a new version of that file, or, updates the original FM package with the new translation. This method needs code support and is not possible yet, worse, it might not be possible before D3 goes open source.
* The FM author just uses English, and somebody else takes the FM, and transforms it into a German version. This has already be done with great success.

The TDM interface is something entirely else and this thread deals with it. Mainly for the reason that "non-native speakers" might have a lot of trouble with the English texts (don't assume that just because you are fluent in English, everyone else is or has to, too!).

The other reason is that it is just ugly if you have a German/French/Russian FM, but an English interface...
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#69 7upMan

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 01:40 PM

Guys, DJ Riff in the Russian forum has probably solved the Russian font problem. Please find the PK4 here. Tels, could you plz look into this and tell me what you think? My computer has a virus and won't be available at least until Friday, so there's nothing I can do from here.

The way to use this PK4 is, according to the author, to install the Training Mission, put the PK4 archive into DOOM3\training_mission\ and to read the first book. The only thing that won't display is the letter "я". Apparently, even the original Russian version of Doom 3 couldn't display this letter. By the way, the last post (zmey) says that he put the PK4 into Doom 3\darkmod\fms\training_mission\ , reloaded the FM and everything worked. It didn't do so before.



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#70 Tels

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 02:05 PM

Guys, DJ Riff in the Russian forum has probably solved the Russian font problem. Please find the PK4 here. Tels, could you plz look into this and tell me what you think? My computer has a virus and won't be available at least until Friday, so there's nothing I can do from here.

The way to use this PK4 is, according to the author, to install the Training Mission, put the PK4 archive into DOOM3\training_mission\ and to read the first book. The only thing that won't display is the letter "я". Apparently, even the original Russian version of Doom 3 couldn't display this letter. By the way, the last post (zmey) says that he put the PK4 into Doom 3\darkmod\fms\training_mission\ , reloaded the FM and everything worked. It didn't do so before.


That's good news!

Unfortunately, the font posted is mac_humaine, but we need Carleton for the menu. But maybe it could be used as a substitude. Unfortunately, I couldn't get it to work that way as D3 refused to load the images. I'll toy around with it a bit more.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#71 Tels

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 02:16 PM

SUCCESS!

I renamed font DDS files to lower-case, then I hacked the font files to reference the new files, put them in place of carleton and inserted a teststring:

Attached File  trans_0013.jpg   167.57KB   38 downloads

Note the broken string in the red rectangle? That was my former test string, I am not sure why this doesn't come up properly. But that might explain why former font tests of my were "unsuccessful" - I just picked the wrong thing to verify it :o

Edit: It seems that having non-english (or non-ascii?) options is somehow not liked by D3. It seems that D3 ignores any Option string that has not at most one <128 character in it. Oh well...

--------------------

Now, having the menu using this font isn't ideal, but its much better than not having Russian at all :)

I'll add the new font instead of the "broken" carleton we have - now all we need is someone to translate everything into russian. Edit: Done. Thank you!
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#72 7upMan

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 02:26 PM

I'm quite certain that there are folks over there wo are motivated enough to do just that. ^_^
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#73 Briareos H

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 04:30 PM

I'm done with the french strings. Should I shorten them now, or are we waiting for a widened versions of the menus (as you posted on June 26)?

I got a reply from Hyeron. He might be around sometime soon. BTW could you remind me what is the problem with the font? The "free" Carlton LET font I downloaded there has all the required characters:

Posted Image

EDIT: Doesn't seem to be the same Carlton font, though. Heh :(

Edited by Briareos H, 29 June 2011 - 04:52 PM.


#74 Tels

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 01:24 AM

I'm done with the french strings. Should I shorten them now, or are we waiting for a widened versions of the menus (as you posted on June 26)?


Very good! I am afraid I have more strings for you, tho :) The list of menu bitmaps plus a few generic ones like "vase", "wine bottle" etc. I will PM them you this evening.

As for shortening, I'd like to have a go at widen the menu (and the inventory space on the HUD) first. Esp. on monitors like mine (1920x1280) it is a little bit silly that the inventory HUD is cut of at 10 characters - but there is a km or so space to the left until the light gem comes :)

Please give me until tonight.

But it would be good to first merge your changes back in.

I got a reply from Hyeron. He might be around sometime soon. BTW could you remind me what is the problem with the font?


The problem with any replacment font for Carleton in D3 is that:

French, german, spanish and italian (and possible others?) do load the same font as english (while polish and russian do not, f.i.). I don't know why, but thats how it is and we can't change that. That is why a replacement font for say French would also affect German, English etc.

If it just replaces the one in the menu, it would be ok, but Carleton is also used for readables, and their appearance might shift... so if you use another font, suddenly the English readables in FMs might be cut off. Or have excessive whitespace at the end. This is made worse by the fact that the font converters for D3 all have one problem or another, leading even to the fact that you cannot decompose and then recompose the same font without appearing different afterwards :(

The nice thing about the font Hyeron produced was that it was almost a pixel-perfect copy of the old for any standard letters/digits, and only added the accented characters. And since he did already all the work, I think we should use it :)

The "free" Carlton LET font I downloaded there has all the required characters:

Posted Image

EDIT: Doesn't seem to be the same Carlton font, though. Heh :(


But it looks very nice, too!

I found another Carleton font on the net: http://www.searchfre...ee/carleton.htm Not sure if this is the same as ours:

Où cet énergumène françis a-t-il perdu sa tête depuis Noël ?

Attached File  Carleton_french.png   3.77KB   10 downloads

In any event, if Hyerons font is unavailable, we might use the accented letters from one of these fonts and hack them onto our existing font. I have an idea how that could work without q3font - e.g. by writing our own utility which can just change single characters and leaves the rest alone.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#75 Hyeron

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 02:41 AM

Correct french typography is to add a non-breaking space before some punctuation signs, namely semicolon, colon, question and exclamation marks. If absolutely necessary, this can be ignored at the risk of looking a bit wierd.


"Veuillez patienter..." is correct. My bad.

Woot! The mod got itself a worthy new french translator. This is SO often forgotten. I'm... strangely relieved. Cheers for that. :)

Edited by Hyeron, 30 June 2011 - 02:42 AM.

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