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Shadowhide

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So I took a brief stroll through the map (I was very busy at home at the time) and then waited on player reactions. The general feedback was fairly negative. I had settled in my mind that Winter Harvest would be a poor representation for the mod and didn't want to abuse the privilege I was granted by promoting a poor mission. It was only after ShadowHide expressed severe disillusion about his work and Baddcog affirmed that I had permission to promote the mission that I relented. I wasn't going to ask the team for permission to promote Winter Harvest because I didn't think it was worth the controversy. I still felt bad about posting that article even after getting approval. Believe what you will about my personal agendas with regard to ShadowHide, I know for a fact that any new player trying Winter Harvest WONT get the intended Dark Mod experience. It's not really a Dark Mod mission. It's more of a Mod of a Mod. Which is just fine if ShadowHide goes to Moddb and created his own Mod page and then cites that he is an off-shoot of The Dark Mod. But to represent TDM with his mission is very questionable. The second version has been improved but still that concern lingers. I suppose that it's good to show that TDM is a flexible environment in the same way that Thief 2 could be expanded to do all sorts of weird variations of game-play. I just think ShadowHide should have promoted his work in a similar fashion as Oscar Winkler's Mod of The Dark Mod does.

 

what the fuck ? WH is not a TDM mission ? so that mean The Sword is not a Thief 1 mission ? lol

 

have you played it ? there is GUARDS and BLACKJACK in WH

 

 

Edited by Shadowhide

Proceed with caution!

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Hmm so was "After Dark" not a Thief 2 mission? Because Winter Harvest is essentially "After Dark lite". I didn't realize that Shadowhide had created both missions until I asked him during beta testing. As poorly as this map might look calling it "not a TDM mission" or a "mod of a mod" is going too far. None of the plot objectives in this mission is particularly radical, anybody could do the same scripting (according to SH, heh). The remainder of the problems are essentially these:

 

1. No indication that the friendlies near your starting point (and rest of Part 1) can be approached, although the objectives do mention "don't kill any friendlies". This and the size of the map could lead to confusion over where to go (you're zigzagging across the map). But the convos provide clues on what to do and I doubt anymore than 10 minutes is wasted backtracking. This ain't King's Story.

2. Light on the stealth, although stealth does occur in Part 2. For Part 1 maybe some zombies could be woven in. I expected one in the dilapidated house anyway.

3. Story/end goal is cliched. Sure, but there are other TDM missions that basically have an obligatory plot, and a few that don't even have that much loot. At least this one had conversations interspersed and some interesting graphics. An improvement might to be to hide some "Easter Egg" loot, esp. in Part 1, and then add an optional loot objective "Try to find X00 loot".

 

So a v3 of this could easily bring this mission up to more peoples' "standards". But I'd rather see Shadowhide work on his next mission anyway.

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I would like to say, in defense of the TDM team, that I have been acting pretty much autonomously for recent Moddb updates. I have been given some freedom to post updates and I take that responsibility very seriously.

 

I think you've been doing great work there.

 

I know for a fact that any new player trying Winter Harvest WONT get the intended Dark Mod experience. It's not really a Dark Mod mission.

 

I wouldn't go that far. I don't think the mission is a particularly good introduction to TDM and I would have supported not including it in moddb, but that's not the same thing as saying it's not a TDM mission.

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Anyway it's important to send the message that FMs can come in all stripes, which is an English expression that just means there should be lots of different types of FMs to suit different people's tastes or moods. There can be a "core" gameplay, but alt-FMs have their place too.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I said this somewhere else but it's appropriate here:

 

On further thought, one thing that might be appropriate on Moddb would be mission reviews. Even reviews of below average missions would be acceptable as news articles, since the review would point out where the mission is weak and wouldn't create an unfair impression of the mod as a whole.

 

I wish I had more time to write reviews...I think they go a long way towards encouraging people to try particular missions and TDM in general.

 

This would be a great opportunity for someone who would like to help out the TDM team but doesn't have any mod-making skills. A good review with decent screenshots can do a lot of good.

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My apologies ShadowHide. Yeah, I got carried away with the hyperbole.

 

It was either describe WH as a "poor mission" or a "non-TDM mission" and I was hoping that the latter was less offensive than the former. Personally, I didn't think it was so bad... (even the original that was getting pretty harsh treatment in the thread)... just strange. ^_^

 

Though it's a slippery slope from a mission like Winter Harvest towards wandering the woods talking to endless NPC's and ending up having a TDM version of Oblivion... (not that that would be a terrible thing either...)

 

Jaxa's argument about a similar mission in Thief 2 legitimizing a TDM version does not hold water though, if a Thief 2 FM author created a side-scrolling space shooter FM would a TDM author who does the same really be representative of TDM as a platform? Just because it was done in Thief 2 doesn't mean it really adheres to the intended core game-style of either platform.

 

I'll shut my foot-filled trap now. :blush:

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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Jaxa's argument about a similar mission in Thief 2 legitimizing a TDM version does not hold water though, if a Thief 2 FM author created a side-scrolling space shooter FM would a TDM author who does the same really be representative of TDM as a platform? Just because it was done in Thief 2 doesn't mean it really adheres to the intended core game-style of either platform.

It would be representative of the versatility of TDM as a platform. Some of my favourite Thief missions (like Brainchild or Fables of the Penitent Thief) are complete departures from the gameplay or setting of the game, but they are great missions in their own right. As long as they are presented that way, I don't see any problem about posting announcements about them. Also, for what it's worth, I liked Winter Harvest. And Swing, too.

Edited by Melan

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Even though I don't get the logic of it, there is some disconnect that the Moddb (or even TTLG, etc) end-user has about "what TDM is".

 

Any intelligent or logical person would take some time to do a little investigation and learn that it's a wonderful Thief style platform it is. (...And that like any platform, there will be variations in content.)

 

Since TDM is already a mod, making yet further excursions means that the end-user will be even further puzzled by the wider variations. "What is this mod? Is it an RPG? Is it a Flight Sim? Whaa???"

 

The Dromed crowd grew accustomed to authors who were fed-up with the "same 'ole same 'ole" but extending that culture here is a bit risky. We are rebelling against the shackles of the TDM format now? So soon after it's inception? Because we want to extend our Thief 2 platform rebellions to a next-gen platform?

 

I heartily welcome any fun new gaming experience. Even those that use TDM as a base.

 

I am just concerned over what folks will say of a TDM represented by space-ships, gummi-bears and penguins. Is that a good way to go? A free-for-all Laissez-faire "as long as it's fun and uses TDM as a base it's a TDM mission" approach?

 

I think I'd be smart enough to decode the implications of such a presentation. Do we care about those who wouldn't? Or, is it a big risk to promote an off-the-wall mission when some new player who is looking for Thief style missions sees TDM and might take a brief glance and deem the project "goofy" or irrelevant and then dismiss it? Conversely, would it grow more interest?

 

All food for thought.

 

And, of course, WH doesn't really stretch far out enough into that topic as I exaggeratedly claimed. :blush:

Edited by nbohr1more

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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I don't see it as rebellion. I see it as an instance of "I have this idea. I can realise it with this platform, which I am already experienced with."

 

That said, there are certainly curious mental blocks and weird hangups around TDM. The people who can't get over that "it is Doom3, right? with that flashlight? but what does it have to do with Thief?" Or the people who can't accept it as a legitimate member of the Thief family because "well, it is not set in the Official Universe so it is not really thiefy. What? Yes, I enjoyed Keeper of the Prophecies, why?" Or the people who think the only way for TDM to live is for Dromed to die. But I don't think non-standard missions are a culprit there. And one day, I would like to see The Modern Mod, and maybe make missions for it.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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This thread is hilarious. Shadowhide begging for attention for his FM that he himself admits is a piece of crap. What a tool. And all the while trashing a worthwhile FM that most people (except for him) enjoy. Why is this doorknob not banned yet?

 

Put THAT in your signature, chump.

 

Here's a tip - make something worthwhile, and it will get attention on its own. You shouldn't have to resort to blaming everyone else because your inferior creation is not worthy of the mod or these boards.

 

:laugh:

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This thread is hilarious. Shadowhide begging for attention for his FM that he himself admits is a piece of crap. What a tool. And all the while trashing a worthwhile FM that most people (except for him) enjoy. Why is this doorknob not banned yet?

yeah,thats right

Put THAT in your signature, chump.

done

Here's a tip - make something worthwhile, and it will get attention on its own. You shouldn't have to resort to blaming everyone else because your inferior creation is not worthy of the mod or these boards.

i leave it for a talented people

Proceed with caution!

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by the way,i didnt started this thread mysel

 

No, that was done by meddlers meddling. And now you have to explain it when, as ever, there was no reason to meddle -- beyond, of course, the affinity meddlers have for meddling.

 

Meddlers are almost as bad as their anxious little lapdogs who, lacking the ability to meddle themselves, nearly piddle themselves -- yip-yap, yip-yap, yip-yapping about banning this one and that. :laugh:

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No, that was done by meddlers meddling.

 

Yes, which is inevitably followed by the whiner whining. :rolleyes:

 

Yeah, we get it. You don't like the fact that this board has moderators. Or rules, for that matter. I know it's horribly authoritarian to have off-topic posts actually moved to a new thread, but you're going to have to learn to live with it.

 

(Or you could stomp off in a huff and slink back in a few months later with a different username, but you're probably too mature for that....)

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Yes, which is inevitably followed by the whiner whining. :rolleyes:

 

(Or you could stomp off in a huff and slink back in a few months later with a different username, but you're probably too mature for that....)

 

This is abo-fucking-lutely hilarious, you crack me up, dewd! :laugh:

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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Ah, the wee weasels who need to be "we"...

 

When their beloved meddling meddlers fail them, and cries of their piddling, yip-yapping "ban 'em" brethren fail them, they wail "We, we, we! We wish you away! We wish! We want. Would that you would. We want weeks without! (No! Months!) Without you! Without which we will worry -- what worrywarts, we -- what will you say? which words will you use?

 

Censor that! Ban them! Go away you!

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they wail "We, we, we! We wish you away! We wish! We want. Would that you would. We want weeks without!

 

Actually, that comment wasn't a suggestion. It was a historical reference.

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An "historical reference"? I went away for 3 months? :laugh:

 

An hysterical defense of you we and your wee need for rules and rulers.

 

A taking too seriously of things at the least... "historical" revision is, um, speaking of censors and banishment and go away go away, and rulers with rulers to keep things in line: Uncle Joesque.

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