WIP : Winter Harvest v3 by Bikerdude

[Sotha]

I would rather have one gem instead of 200 flawed missions, because honestly there are some good ones but none that I would call a gem. People who could make a masterpiece are either gone like Pinkdot or Squill, or are not interested like DrK. I still believe we will see quality maps some day. Map by Johannes looks promising. If active community means more of speed buiding contests than I'm not that interested. I often hear that one can make a good TDM map in a month. No, you can't,

 

Wow. Your levels of standard are depressingly high. Keep in mind that we are not professional mappers here. And if we were, we probably would not be spending our free time mapping, at least not for free.

 

But in the end, if the graphical style (or even a model selection) is something that prevents you from even finishing a map, it is your own loss, really.

[Springheel]

People who could make a masterpiece are either gone like Pinkdot or Squill

 

Not to denigrate either of those two, but neither one of them ever produced a completed mission. What makes you think they would be more capable of a "masterpiece" then the authors who already exist?

 

I would absolutely agree with Melan. Making great maps takes a lot of time, but NO ONE will bother spending that time if they don't think there is an active community to release it to. Most television is pretty poor, but the 5% of shows that I actually like wouldn't exist without the other 95%.

 

Mappers and their missions are the lifeblood of the mod now, and we need to do all we can to encourage that. Personally, I'm a bit concerned at the lack of new missions lately...it's been about 4 months now, hasn't it?

[Arcturus]

But in the end, if the graphical style (or even a model selection) is something that prevents you from even finishing a map, it is your own loss, really.

It's a loss of the audience.

Not to denigrate either of those two, but neither one of them ever produced a completed mission. What makes you think they would be more capable of a "masterpiece" then the authors who already exist?

Masterpiece by our standards, of course. They are proffessional designers. Small city fragment made by Squill is a good example. Buildings aren't very detailed, but they look like real buildings. Proportions, textures, and overall design make a a coherent whole. It was later chopped into pieces that can be seen in some other maps in which those pieces not always blend well (your map was a rather positive exception).

Making great maps takes a lot of time, but NO ONE will bother spending that time if they don't think there is an active community to release it to.

Mappers and people that comment on the forum are percent of the community. Besides, quality work will always have it's audience.

[Sotha]

It's a loss of the audience.

 

Er... No. You not playing a mission because of your strict mission standards cannot possibly be a loss for the audience. I can only be loss for you, especially if other people happily play the mission and enjoy it.

It isn't more complicated than that.

 

I might also add that if everyone in this community had similar views as you, there would no point in mapping at all as no one would play the missions made by amateur mappers.

[Arcturus]

I play all missions, most of them are enjoyable to some point, only because the mod itself is so good. I can play test maps for fun. Give me on room, couple of guards, 40 arrows and I will have fun. For five minutes.

Thief had a proffesional campaign that set some standard. Our standard is set by couple of ok missions and dozens of "speed build" missions. Perhaps that's why the mod doesn't draw half attention it deserves and talented people like DrK say: no, thanks.

[Springheel]

Masterpiece by our standards, of course.

 

I don't think your standards are shared by the majority of people, fortunately. If they were, we would have no audience at all.

 

They are proffessional designers. Small city fragment made by Squill is a good example. Buildings aren't very detailed, but they look like real buildings.

 

Professional designers? That's news to me. Squill was an animation student when he was here, IIRC.

 

Squill's buildings are fine, but I don't see how they're any more "real" looking than the buildings in NHAT, RTTC or a half-dozen other city maps. Not only that, but the ability to create a real-looking building says little or nothing about one's ability to create a good mission. Things like plot, immersion, good light placement, creative use of AI, good readables, etc, (not to mention the dedication to actually finish) are all more significant, IMO.

 

Mappers and people that comment on the forum are percent of the community

 

There may be mappers who are willing to spend a year or more working on something without any evidence that there are lots of people who will play and comment on it, but I have my doubts.

[Baddcog]

Well, I think it's a shame that someone will only play missions that are 'good enough'. I've had these same comments from team member(s) about my map and quite frankly it turned me off.

 

I try to play everyone's maps but people won't play mine because it's not up to standards or whatever, then what's the point? How much time to I have to sink into a mission before it's playable? Do I have to fine tune everything to the nth degree?

 

People rip on each others maps then gloat about their maps in every thread... Honestly it turns me off again everytime i think of it.

 

This is a hobby people, everyone does it for the love of mapping/modding/playing missions. Not because they expect the next Crysis to emerge. We have some pretty decent maps out right now, not all perfect, some aren't great sure. But you think DrK was making maps for T2 right when it came out? By the time he started mapping i wasn't even playing T2 much anymore.

There are almost 1,000 T2 maps, and what, 10 'GEMS'. Why should TDM be any different? Do we expect that since we have a newer engine all of a sudden we're just going to have gems pop up everywhere?

 

The rerality is we could hit 1,000 FM's and only have a handful of gems too. But if you enjoy the gameplay and aren't distracted by 'a model I wouldn't use' or a 'texture on the floor' then TDM is a great thing. If you are that picky about someone elses work, then you probably don't enjoy too much.

I know where that comes from, as a mapper/modeler I see things in maps that I don't agree with or that I would do differently. I notice texture mis-alignments in the best maps. But guess what, I notice these in all the 'best new games' too. Skyrim, Left4Dead, TF2... All the games I play made by proffessional dev studios have these issues, I still enjoy those games too.

[Arcturus]

Professional designers? That's news to me. Squill was an animation student when he was here, IIRC.

Ok, so Squill is a professional animator: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/9633-greed-corp/page__view__findpost__p__191436 Perhaps it doesn't count as designer. Anyway he knew how to make good looking static meshes.

Squill's buildings are fine, but I don't see how they're any more "real" looking than the buildings in NHAT, RTTC or a half-dozen other city maps.

I could argue about that. Let's just say that in my opinion mappers should be less "creative". The more their work is based on real archtecture and less on their imagination the better.

Not only that, but the ability to create a real-looking building says little or nothing about one's ability to create a good mission. Things like plot, immersion, good light placement, creative use of AI, good readables, etc, (not to mention the dedication to actually finish) are all more significant, IMO.

I don't recall ugly missions with brilliant story. When someone spends many months on modeling the map, he or she will not just forget about the rest. Besides the map is a whole, it's fun or not. It doesn't need a plot at all as long as the place feels live and interesting.

There may be mappers who are willing to spend a year or more working on something without any evidence that there are lots of people who will play and comment on it, but I have my doubts.

What about all those game mods of professional quality out there that come out of nowhere? They always start as a hobby, or training. And when they are good the audience appears.

[nbohr1more]

I have to say, I am guilty of being more interested in what Biker saw in WH than having any real interest in the mission itself.

 

I also love seeing how authors revise or re-interpret each others' works so this was particularly stoking my imagination.

 

Why not? A large forest, supernatural themes, RPG elements, a change of season. etc. What would Biker have done with all this?

 

My original concern, when I promoted the mission, was how the TDM populace was reacting to the mission and what kind of first impression it made.

 

So my distinction there was not whether the mission should exist but whether it should be in such a prominent place.

 

Biker was following up on that conversation so I wouldn't take his motivation as "trying to set an arbitrary standard for all missions".

 

Apparently, I cannot delete things once uploaded to Moddb (only replace them) so this also would've helped for those folks who (for some reason)

only manually download missions from Moddb.

 

So be it. If this work gets made into another mission so much for the better.

 

It might be nice to at least release a pared-down improvement to the mission leaving some cosmetic and gameplay fixes in place though.

 

As for what's best for the community?

 

It's hard to say.

 

Some feel that TDM needs a campaign to kick-start the imagination of the FM community to act as analogous to the Thief games verses Thief FM's.

 

Some would like less contests with longer deadlines.

 

Others see speed-builds and a quick expansion of the mission catalog as the best strategy. (Echoing Komag's foundational work in the Thief community.)

 

I think that these are all valid ways to look at the issue but it's hard to say that there is a real magic bullet here. One thing that may help more than the above is

if some of the Doom 3 GPL community can improve the overall engine performance thus lowering the barrier to entry and expanding the potential contributors.

Serpentine is already doing some of this work, of course. (And Tels' SEED system has yet to see it's full potential too.)

 

The contest element can also be more effective with prizes and sponsorship. This is something I need to work on more (blame me).

 

Finally, Thief 4 itself is sure to heighten the awareness for all things Thief. So, perhaps beyond every other speculated way to ignite contribution, the simple after-effect for Thief 4's media

coverage will outdo any of the above efforts.

[Bikerdude]

Probably rear, since the only way in is through a narrow cave. Unless you change that. But I didn't think of it that much.

Grand, well I will look at intergrating my map with yours and see whats what.

 

I agree, however, that if Biker has no real interest in WH of it's own accord then perhaps any rework or revision should be left to the original author or a more sympathetic contributor.

I actually own the map now as SH donated to me and the idea was to add to both the map (to make ist more cohesive and beliveable) and the story (so people actually understood what was going on and what they needed to do). I still have the PM chat between SH and the other testers when I worked on v2 with the sotry suggestions etc.

 

And now that I think about it, the castle I builts isnt pretty or organic enough to fit in with Arcturus's demo, so I am still inclined to carry on with v3 and expand the story as I wanted to in v2.

 

Then once thats done I can finish the spanish translation and bug fix of Business as useal, and at the same time hopefully finish helping ERH+ get he translated and updated version of his Crystal map out the door. Then maybe fix all the bugs in Dragons claw and then in between all that doe sthe bits of work on the various campaign missions.

[Springheel]

I don't recall ugly missions with brilliant story.

 

That's a complete straw man of what I said. What I said was that the ability to create a "real" looking house (or even brilliant models) says nothing about how good your mission will be. Your map can look like it's straight out of a movie, and if the AI, lighting, readables, etc, are boring, the mission is not going to be a success.

 

In my opinion, anyone who actually has the courage and dedication to complete and release even a small mission, with all the work that entails, deserves an awful lot of credit. And it's a simple fact that without such people, The Dark Mod will not survive, no matter how often we improve the code or assets.

[Diego]

Well, since the topic is completely derailed already, allow me to derail it even further.

 

I have pretty high standards and I think we have a lot of really good missions here. Still, one way to improve the general quality would be encourage teams of mappers, because rarely one is good at all aspects of level design. It could also mean faster development!

[pusianka]

Well, since the topic is completely derailed already, allow me to derail it even further.

 

I have pretty high standards and I think we have a lot of really good missions here. Still, one way to improve the general quality would be encourage teams of mappers, because rarely one is good at all aspects of level design. It could also mean faster development!

 

I second that!(with all respect Master Diego: can I?) I am actually bothered why you don't try to team up? It seems like everyone wants to create their own stories which is both good and bad at the same time. I know people here were already discussing that but really making a kind of a universal world(or just a few of them) could really make it more atmospheric since we would feel the connection. Besides developing a full campaign is in my opinion much more satisfying then a ton of small fms.

[Diego]

I am actually bothered why you don't try to team up?

Me? I'm no mapper If I had some free time I would try to make some models or something like that.

 

You're right about the universe thing. TDM already has its own universe but needs a campaign to illustrate it.

[Bikerdude]

heheh, what are you lot like..

[Sotha]

Well, since the topic is completely derailed already, allow me to derail it even further.

 

I have pretty high standards and I think we have a lot of really good missions here. Still, one way to improve the general quality would be encourage teams of mappers, because rarely one is good at all aspects of level design. It could also mean faster development!

 

My view and opinion.

Having many cooks will not necessarily improve the soup.

 

When I map, it is important to me that the map is my own, each line and touch made by my own hand. Okay, I need help in fields I am utterly incapable of doing, like vocals.

 

Also haven't you seen how people comment other people's WIP screenies. "I get ulcers from those textures" "The beams are unrealistic" etc. Sometimes people complain about unrealistic structures even when the scene was constructed using a real life photo! Also I've monitored a thread in which multiple people are improving a single map. It is sad to read at times, because other people complain about something, then it is changed then other people complain about the new change.

 

Now imagine a team of mappers with different vision for the map, resulting in a developing hell where the mappers 'fix' changes made by the other. It just will not work. At least not for me. No, I work alone and will save my sanity from the complaints. Since my missions are generally among the better received ones among the community, I think I'm still doing a good job.

[PPoe]

I have already voiced my disagreement on the need to update Shadowhide's FM, so I will say something about community standards instead. I think we should not even give the illusion that we are excluding peoples' contributions if they don't conform to the arbitrary standards of experienced editors with a lot of time on their hands. That leads to stagnation, decline and a small circle of contributors. Let's be realistic: beginner efforts, even missions from experienced editors will not be perfect. They will have bugs or poor visuals or design problems. I could go through the mission list and tear about 3/4 of the entries into bloody shreds if I set myself impossible reviewing standards. But I don't, because I know about those limits.

 

So I would rather have 200 flawed missions and 20 gems and a living community than three Calendra's Cisterns, five Ominous Bequests, one Mission X and the sound of crickets in the forums. In a living and inclusive community, people will learn, new talent will emerge and replace those who are dropping out. There will be plenty of boxy mansion missions, but that's normal. There will also be things like The Black Frog or The Seven Sisters or Rocksbourg because the community will be large enough to attract or train those people who can do those mega-projects (hint, I am no longer one of those people; my free time is getting way too scarce to build anything like Disorientation again).

 

And back to Winter Harvest -- I will be frank, and I will say this as someone who respects you and your skills: if you think it belongs in a category called "an FM that poor", you plain should not be working on it. Because if you don't respect a work of art, you cannot do it justice with your efforts. Right now, it seems to me you are creating an entirely new mission based on Shadowhide's work, and once it gets uploaded, this new mission will deny us the opportunity to enjoy Shadowhide's original contribution on its own merits.

 

I fully agree..

[Springheel]

Also I've monitored a thread in which multiple people are improving a single map. It is sad to read at times, because other people complain about something, then it is changed then other people complain about the new change.

 

Yep, it's like two people trying to paint a single painting. Very difficult to pull off.

 

I think it's possible _if_ the two mappers divided up the tasks between them, like "I'll map the geometry; you do the AI placement and readables." That way there would be less opportunity to step on each others' toes. But those two mappers would have to have similar visions of what they wanted the mission to be like, and either _really_ get along well, or have clearly defined leader/assistant roles.

[RPGista]

Yes, what I was going to say - I think the "one man team" phillosophy supposes that you have mastered (as is Sotha's case) all the major aspects of TDM creation (spatial creativity, architecture, AI behaviour, special effects, triggered events, etc). There are even others that one might not have mastered, which will effectively steer what you think you can or cannot do - things like specific animations (in this case, Springheel would be able to do it too), special textures, unique models, some kind of highly complex scripted event (which Grayman could pull off), its a big list... The point is, its very beneficial to have a team where each will focuse on his/hers strengths and interests. And thats as simple as that, when you are working inside a creative team, like I do professionaly, its mostly about respecting each one's side in the contribution - supposing I had another complementary talent, I wouldnt mind at all having Melan or Bikerdude taking care of the world creation, simply because I know that wether they make something exactly how I imagined it or not, its still going to be a worthy solution and I'd have my own department to have fun with. Most of the best missions I played so far were made by teams, and it shows, missions like Heart of Lone Salvation or NHAT probably got to such high levels because people could focuse their talents on a single subject/trying to achieve specific, sophisticated goals, instead of spreading attention all over. I for one find myself spending half my time reading documents instead of mapping, because as everyone knows each small topic is a science in itself (AI, spawnargs, how triggers work, how to handle patches, adding sounds and fading lights by room, etc). Of course its a learning experience, so you have to go through that in order to do anything half seriously, but it is bound to turn people off, specially because each topic could really use a lot of your dedication to master. Thats why in see on any mod site people who call themselves "modelers" or "2d artists" or "coders", and you wont see "general knowledge game designer"... So yeah, I'm all up for more teams in the community (like the on going campaign).

[Diego]

What Spring and RPGista said. I wasn't suggesting a completely disorganized team structure, but something more like what we see in the industry.

 

Someone does the concept: What is this mission about? location, environment, story, readables, characters, 'more or less' how the map is organized (there is a church here, the upper floor there will have the scepter etc). What is it supposed to feel like and all that.

 

Someone does the actual level design. Following the guidelines above, the level designer will block out the level thinking completely in terms of gameplay. Here, lights are only put for the gameplay purpose.

 

Someone makes it look good. Take that bunch of blocks from the level designer and turn it into the idea from the concept guy. All the make up goes here. Materials, models, particles, additional lights, audio stuff etc.

 

Don't take my suggestion so seriously! We are not professionals, we do this for fun. If you like doing it all yourself, that's how you should do it. But I'm sure there are many people who would love to do one of the above steps without having to worry about the rest, so this is an interesting approach even for people doing this for fun.

[ithel]

I'm wondering if it might be wiser to change the name of this project altogether, out of respect for the integrity of someone else's artistic vision, even if it doesn't coincide with one's own. It was bad enough for me that I released Hush Hush Sweet Harlot about a week before Calendra's Cistern, and in light of the latter's supreme artistry, most of the initial comments about HHSH were pretty disheartening. But it would have been immeasurably worse had Purah "fixed" my flawed vision and released a "new and improved" HHSH v2. I like the notion of using someone's work as a springboard, but to keep the same name and described the project in the terms used in this thread (as fixing something too flawed to be associated with TDM?) is profoundly unwise, for the reasons Melan and Springheel and others have already suggested. I think there are intellectual property issues here as well, if not in any significant or enforceable legal sense then certainly in an ethical sense. I do look forward to seeing your work though, because you're a good builder/mission designer.

[Melan]

And I liked Hush, Hush, too. Except for getting up to that tower with the rope arrow; spent ages trying to figure that out.

[Springheel]

Most of the best missions I played so far were made by teams, and it shows, missions like Heart of Lone Salvation or NHAT

 

Uh, neither of those were created by teams.

 

Of course, everyone gets help from people here and there, and some missions get abandoned and turned over to someone else, but the only missions that I'm aware of that were designed and created by a team was our St. Lucia demo (which went fourth months over deadline and had several incidents of infighting and hurt feelings).

 

I think there are intellectual property issues here as well, if not in any significant or enforceable legal sense then certainly in an ethical sense.

 

Just to restate, Shadowhide gave Biker permission to do whatever he wanted with the map, so there's no ethical issues involved here.

[RPGista]

I sense a lot of antibodies here to this intiative and I understand them completely, its actually nice to see many defending the intellectual product of a mission author, regardless of the person or supposed quality of it (I made sure to writte Shadowhide a PM praising his work). But on the other hand, besides having a say about what you would rather see Bikerdude focusing his attention on, I cant see whats wrong here? He has already stated that he had complete permission by the original author to expand on it, his reasons for doing it are his own (wether its because it isnt a good mission in his eyes or because he sees a different potential for it), and we still have the first and second version to play just in case we want to see the original work. As long as this mission doesnt state in the title "Play this one, the other versions suck, this is the definitive version, etc" or some other demeaning statement, all we'll get is another mission to play?

 

EDIT: Just saw Springheel's answer, a bit surprised because I distinctly remember seeing mentions of contributors to both missions... But oh well. The point can still remain, I guess.

Edited March 22, 2012 by RPGista

[Bikerdude]

EDIT: Just saw Springheel's answer, a bit surprised because I distinctly remember seeing mentions of contributors to both missions... But oh well. The point can still remain, I guess.

nb. I worked on the previous version (v2) with SH, so by the time I have finished v3 over the half of the map will have been built by me.