Jump to content


Photo

The End Is Nigh


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
354 replies to this topic

#26 Melan

Melan

    Contest Winner, Wordsmith

  • Campaign Dev
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4451 posts

Posted 25 March 2012 - 04:36 PM

Have you tried inviting T2 mappers specifically for the campaign? It's a completely different deal than simply inviting to make maps for TDM. The campaign is something bigger, more ambitious and a team effort. That might draw a lot of people.

There is a learning curve involved - people who have never made anything in DR should probably get their feet wet with a mission of their own just to learn the differences between DR/Dromed.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#27 lost_soul

lost_soul

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1456 posts

Posted 25 March 2012 - 04:55 PM

To the person who said they are doing dev work on an unreliable laptop, perhaps the community can help you get a better rig. I could buy the 8 GB RAM, some folks could go half for a decent CPU, two others on a motherboard, etc. You don't even need to buy an OS!

Edited by lost_soul, 25 March 2012 - 04:56 PM.

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.


#28 Bikerdude

Bikerdude

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 20320 posts

Posted 25 March 2012 - 05:33 PM

To the person who said they are doing dev work on an unreliable laptop, perhaps the community can help you get a better rig.

I have offered to help him out with this a few times, but its not as bad as it sounds as his brother is a an IT bod I believe.

That said, Melan my offer still stand I am more than happy to help you out with your laptop. Drop me a Pm if you want with the specs and the issue again.

#29 SeriousToni

SeriousToni

    Beginner Contest 2012 Winner

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2207 posts

Posted 25 March 2012 - 05:48 PM

Nah - you're all just melancholic because the forum feels very empty since you kicked out Shadowhide! :P

I'll say:
Posted Image
"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

#30 Baddcog

Baddcog

    Mod hero

  • Development Role
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5360 posts

Posted 25 March 2012 - 06:42 PM

  • Models - Spring's retouching of the AI models, new teapot/clock/chest of drawers models from an external source, Noss' new models and work on as well replacement zombie model.


And no mention of my models :(

I've only added about 15+ models to this update on top of the fore mentioned models that Jessica made and I am importing for her.
(fences, gates, signs, jewlery boxes, tools, lab equipment... and touching up a few older models as well, plus skins, materials, entities)

Unfortunately this pretty much put an end to the progress I was making on my map, but I'll be back to it.

And the 40+ hours I spent on light entities so far :(

-------
I don't think anyone has officially 'quit'. It's just over time the mod staff has dwindled. Real life, babies, etc... I myself hadn't done much for several of the last updates but felt a need to pitch in. But once 1.08 is out i can't say I will continue the same pace for 1.09, I have pretty much dropped everything else I was involved in for this update. Though I think after this update 1.09 can probably wait awhile.

Who knows about TTLG, it's not a simple subject. Some of the old crew are into TDM. Some don't have hardware. Or time. A lot of the old crew were already 'older gamers' to begin with. It's just not a genre that really attracts a younger crowd. Some have moved on to professional game jobs. preconceptions, stubborness...

Sure it's been slow lately. There have been lulls at ttlg too. Some of it's seasonal. We're heading into summer and a lot of people will be outside more. I wouldn't write off the mod yet. FM's are getting better, campaign is coming sometime...This stuff will help increase interest.
Would it have been good to release a campaign right away, probably, but there just wasn't the time, crew to do it.
Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

#31 Serpentine

Serpentine

    Uber member

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2903 posts

Posted 25 March 2012 - 06:49 PM

@Baddcog - My bad!

I don't really see models unless there are problems :)

I'd say that atm we're actually in one of our most active phases - I know people can't really see it, but behind the scenes each of us is off on their own mission, but there's no real pressure unless there are problems - if people need to take time off, I'd rather they not feel they need to justify it or anything. So things might take a bit longer, but everyone is happy with their work - and thats what matters at the end of the day!

Modding is a good feeling, you just get into a zone and work away in peace mmmm. That and I'm house-sitting and this house is crazy big and very quiet.
  • STiFU and fllood like this

#32 grayman

grayman

    Master Builder, Coder

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12923 posts

Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:02 PM

Well, apart from coding, here's what I've been doing.

#33 ithel

ithel

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 116 posts

Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:16 PM

"A lot of the old crew were already 'older gamers' to begin with"

Heh, that's probably a larger factor than we might suppose. The flipside is that some of us older gamers are enjoying a lot of sneak-play with our kids as they get old enough to be allowed to play. Laugh if you want, but my 10yr old daughter likes nothing more than to play things with daddy, and Darkmod games are part of it. I can't tell you how many hours we've spent together planning out this mission we're making. It's been on hold because of my work, but in about four weeks, my load will be way down and all our planning is going to translate into a mission. I need to grab a good mic, because my little drama queen is ready with some great lines for her character, the child protagonist of Girl With A Rabbit.

One other factor I think contributes stems from the somewhat religious attitude many of us have about the old Thief games and the way that has translated into our love of Darkmod. We have high expectations. Sometimes those expectations lead us to less-than-encouraging responses to things as simple as screenshots. Like a lot of churches, "we eat our own." What a shame....that guy toiling in isolation for months needs encouragement and constructive feedback more than anything else! As others have said, this is a hobby. Praise what you can, point out gently what you can't, pass over the rest. :) My two cents!
  • fllood likes this

#34 Tels

Tels

    Mod hero

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 15024 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:02 AM

@ Tels I was in no way trying to under mine the success of the mod thus far. What the mod has achieved to date is V impressive. I was merely trying to highlight the positives that lie in the mods future. And yes while there will always be something that people want I really belive that a good campaign will be less a positive attribute but more of a milestone. Creating indivdual FMs is one thing. But a an engaging gaming expoerience that lasts over a large period of time is what will really display the mods strengths.


I know what you are saying, and I'd love to have a campaign (just to shut up all the "we need a campaign" threads so we can back to work :P

However, I really really do wonder how a campaign will work out, given that even simple low-level tasks (like replace a few D3 specific textures, or paint some characters for the foreign language support) are not getting done because nobody has time, can be bothered etc. And that's not even the large coding tasks, or the large mapping tasks (a campaign needs a lot of mapping time!).

Also, if you look at commercial games, often they have very very short playtime, and yet, they sell millions for the multi-player (or even for their short content, Half Life Lost Coast comes to mind). IN these terms, I wonder if we really *need* a campaign, or if people just wish we had one and justify their wish with "oh the MOD will really be successful and shine it's strenght then". With that reasoning, give people one campaign, and you *will* see them complain that it is too short, that TDM needs really a trilogy of campaigns, that we need multiplayer, that it needs to run on consoles and android etc. Whenit comes to wishes, the sky is the limit..

And at the same time, the developers (modellers, sound guys, everyone doing the actual work) get burned out every second week, and see nothing but work, work, work, no joy. And for every bug we fix, 5 new ones crop up. Before v1.06, our bug tracker had 400 unresolved issues. Now, even after fixing a lot of bugs, we at 440 open issues. Granted, a few are feature requests, but the workload doesn't seem to get smaller, and the outlook is dim (e.g. "a 50% chance that yet another person gives up working, slight flaming wars in the forums with high temperatures leading to a potential ban").

So, I can just wish the guys working on the campaign all the luck, because they gonna need it. And it will be cool when it is done! Let's just hope that it works out, and that the rest of the mod doesn't fizzle out in the meantime.
  • Melan likes this
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#35 Tels

Tels

    Mod hero

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 15024 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:07 AM

I was under the impression that standalone TDM would be a 'long way off' but if you have made that much progress already it is very encouraging.


See here: http://forums.thedar...hered-dark-mod/

I think Serpentine has a good point regarding the main page posts. A monthly 'round-up' post listing all released missions for the month along with other content would keep the home page fresh.


nbohr1more did a very good job at moddb - we got a lot of visitors. If you look at the charts, you see the big spike from when he was active there. Maybe he can pick that up again?

www.moddb.com/mods/the-dark-mod/stats
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#36 Sotha

Sotha

    Vertical Contest Winner

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5664 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:10 AM

I usually declare myself a realist.
1) TDM is already a success. During the last year it has been polished greatly. Only few issues remain.
2) If you feel that the mod is dying out and don't want it to happen, step forward, learn DR and give your contribution to the Mod.
3) While the mission output seems stagnant, there are work going on behind the scenes as our elite mappers work on the campaign.
4) I've committed myself in releasing two more Thomas Porter missions. In the end, when everything is released, I'm thinking of going back and retouch all the TP missions and make them into an unofficial campaign. That is, link the mission storylines more strongly. Due to briefing issues (*) I am probably forced to keep the missions as a separate downloads, though.

(*) I've no idea how to make the separate button controlled briefings into a single campaign briefing file.

After laying off the finalized TP campaign to rest, I'm planning to retire from the mapping business. Unless I get another idea, that is.
Clipper
-The mapper's best friend.

#37 i30817

i30817

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 453 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:38 AM

My observation is that the Doom3 engine can't simply handle the open spaces that Dromed modders crave for thief missions. It's manual optimization process doesn't help either.

Resuming, i think it would be nice if the open source hackers focused on that.

#38 Melan

Melan

    Contest Winner, Wordsmith

  • Campaign Dev
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4451 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:49 AM

I have offered to help him out with this a few times, but its not as bad as it sounds as his brother is a an IT bod I believe.

That said, Melan my offer still stand I am more than happy to help you out with your laptop. Drop me a Pm if you want with the specs and the issue again.

It is a matter of convincing him to come visit me (he lives in the capital, I live in a smaller city) and do some work that looks like a nightmarish world of complexity to me, and I guess will mean snapping a few cables to the correct places for him. For a guy who likes building missions for computer games in his spare time, I am almost hardware illiterate. :(

WRT the mod, maybe I was too pessimistic. I will be the first to admit that I tend to see things in a gloomy way. But still.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#39 Melan

Melan

    Contest Winner, Wordsmith

  • Campaign Dev
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4451 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:01 AM

My observation is that the Doom3 engine can't simply handle the open spaces that Dromed modders crave for thief missions. It's manual optimization process doesn't help either.

This is only partly correct. The engine has its own hangups, but don't forget that Dromed also had hard limits - like the 1024 polygons in view thing. I would argue that this limits large open spaces far more (I literally spent more than a month trying to fix a single view in Disorientation into that limit, and although it worked out in the end, it was a bloody nuisance for that single, although impressive long view).

Where people freak out is that it works differently in Doom3 because of the way the engine is optimised (manually via visportals vs. automatically via portalisation). The equation is less straightforward. In Dromed, you get 1024+ polys in view and you get the hall of mirrors effect; add a few more and you get crashy. In TDM, you get a performance hit. But you can have large open spaces with nice detail or more compartmentalised spaces with a stupendous amount of detail (that means literally 50-100.000+ polygons), you just can't have large open spaces with a stupendous amount of detail (the original version of Return to the City was like that because I optimised it very badly). This is more dependent on hardware than the engine itself - after all, RttC ran, you just needed a moderately powerful PC to fit those hundred thousands of polys into memory without a huge slowdown. It is testament to the engine's power that it didn't explode in a shower of bloody chunks. I did everything wrong, and it still kept going!
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#40 SeriousToni

SeriousToni

    Beginner Contest 2012 Winner

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2207 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:19 AM

I really don't understand why everyone is debating on who has released which content and who is too busy in real life, etc. I mean looking at what's already there and looking forward to what's coming should get every pessimistic thought out of the way. It was getting a bit quite in the last months but that is a good sign for me personally, as it means that everyone is busy in the background (with TDM hopefully;) )

Let's not get lost in anguish, guys. Come on - only two weeks until the Beginners Map Releases! :)
I never said, that my map has some nice, decent, fancy, whatever stuff. I won't ever do, because it's my first map and I just learned DR, so I won't compare with e.g. Biker's missions or something. I'll let the players decide, if there's some "decent stuff going on" in it. Though, I hope the best, because I put much work and time in it. I believe the other participants did the same effort and maybe even more - I don't know. But we will all know - in two weeks.
Until then let's not whine about the silence - let's celebrate in anticipation!
  • Sotha likes this
"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

#41 Bikerdude

Bikerdude

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 20320 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:02 AM

It is a matter of convincing him to come visit me (he lives in the capital, I live in a smaller city) and do some work that looks like a nightmarish world of complexity to me, and I guess will mean snapping a few cables to the correct places for him.

Drop me a Pm and I will see what can be done remotely, you'll need to have teamviewer installed for me to be able to remote in etc.

#42 Sotha

Sotha

    Vertical Contest Winner

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5664 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:11 AM

Until then let's not whine about the silence - let's celebrate in anticipation!


Your attitude rocks! Think about how far we have already gone. When I started working on Beleaguered Fence (that was only some two years ago) the AI were struggling, there were constant log jams, AI got stuck in various places. The AI couldn't even make way for each other.

I remember thinking -at that time- that if the AI is not improved, the mod will -sadly- crash and burn.

Look where we are today: the AI is very polished thanks to grayman's immensively valuable work! (Not to undermine other devs work, I am just celebrating especially this because the AI is among the most important things in a singleplayer stealth game.) There are some bugs, sure, but the overall AI performance is totally on the next level. TDM AI is at present better than in any given commercial game! And it was done with voluntary work. Impressive feat indeed!

My guess is that TDM popularity is mostly held back by the D3 dependency. To try it people have to get D3. Even though the game is inexpensive, I would not be surprised by the the psychological obstacle in getting D3 only to play TDM is for some people.
Clipper
-The mapper's best friend.

#43 Bikerdude

Bikerdude

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 20320 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:20 AM

My guess is that TDM popularity is mostly held back by the D3 dependency. To try it people have to get D3. Even though the game is inexpensive, I would not be surprised by the the psychological obstacle in getting D3 only to play TDM is for some people.

Role on TDM 1.09 or 1.1 then I imagine for a D3 free TDM experience?!

#44 STiFU

STiFU

    Uber member

  • Development Role
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3573 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:02 AM

Honestly, I can't understand how people can think of the mod as slowly dying. At the moment, to me it feels like we are getting support from all sides. Many new people trying mapping and texturing, experienced people writing tutorials (Renzatic, thanks by the way :) ) et cetera. And everything is working out great inside the team as well, although Greebo is missing quite a bit but he'll be back. I suppose Springheel just had a rough day... Relax people! :)

That doesn't mean I am not hoping for even more support of course. I am still dreaming of the day J.C.Denton (or someone else capable) returns with a fully working GPL-ready SSAO-Implementation... That would be so damn hot!!!!! :)

#45 PPoe

PPoe

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 200 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:09 AM

Dark mod is great, we already have a lot of missions, some of them are pretty good. I had fun playing them, and I have fun creating my own mission (altrought Im progressing really slowly due to the university)
He was sneeking silently in the night, moonlight was his enemy.
(Im not a native speaker, sorry for all miscleanous caused by my english..)

#46 Springheel

Springheel

    Creative Director (retired)

  • Admin
  • 37753 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:22 AM

Although my comment that started this all off was not hypothetical, I didn't mean to suggest the mod was in imminent danger of dying.

Suffice to say that I was brought to the sudden realization that the project is too concentrated in the hands of too few people. While there are lots of great people contributing here and there, there are only about half a dozen people who are doing the heavy lifting on a regular basis. What would happen to future AI updates if grayman got burned out? Who would take over making new character models or animating if I didn't want to do it anymore? Who would keep updating DR if greebo wanted to move on? Etc.

Looking at our mission statistics, we have three mappers, Sotha, Jesps and Bikerdude, who together are responsible for _30%_ of all our existing missions. That's a ridiculous amount of consolidation. It's great that we have new mappers coming on board for the latest contest, but for the last year and a quarter, only five new people have released a mission. Everyone else is either one of our experienced mappers or a developer. Five new mappers in 15 months is not encouraging. Sotha has already announced that he's retiring, and overall our mission releases keep getting further apart. Too few people are responsible for too much of the work.

I don't see how anyone can really expect this mod to take off without a campaign.


I find it darkly amusing that a thread started by the possibility of core members burning out because of all the work they're doing has resulted in two main "solutions" (a campaign and making TDM standalone) both of which require massive amounts of further work by the same members. <_<

I'm always a bit puzzled by this attitude that a large campaign will solve anything. People seem to forget that we already HAVE a three-mission campaign...did it solve anything? What is going to be so important about a longer one? Are people expecting the campaign to present an iconic protagonist that can be used in all future FMs? Are people expecting the campaign to delve deeply into the TDM world; to develop the unique factions and flesh out the setting details in the wiki? If so, I think your expectations are too high. I get the feeling some people imagine the campaign being worked on by the entire TDM development team, but that's far from the truth. There are only three or four people working on the campaign at the moment, and unless something changes, there's no way it's going to be finished before the middle of 2013 at the earliest. And circling back to my original point, all it would take is for one or two of the remaining campaign people to burn out (which frankly, seems nearly like the case already), and then what happens?

Tels, on 25 March 2012 - 05:00 PM,
We are halfway there, but a lot of work remains to be done.

I was under the impression that standalone TDM would be a 'long way off' but if you have made that much progress already it is very encouraging.

Tels must be talking about the code part of making TDM standalone, because we are nowhere near close to replacing half the assets that would need replacing. When someone presents a fully sculpted and rigged zombie with the 30+ animations it would need, then I'll start feeling optimistic about that possibility.

You cannot win in this "game", when you deliver content for free and people still complain that they want something else or something bigger, better or more. That starts to really annoy me - and it makes me really questioning why I am still doing this.


And that's the thing. I'm sure all of us in the development team have asked this question multiple times. I don't think people realize how much time and effort the few remaining developers put into each mod update, and how frequently the effort outweighs the payoff. We choose to do this for free and nobody owes us anything for making that choice, but every complaint, every argument, every casual suggestion to "just do more" adds up until the question, "why am I still doing this?" starts to have no good answer.
  • Bikerdude likes this
TDM Missions:   A Score to Settle   *   A Reputation to Uphold   *   A New Job   *    A Matter of Hours
 
Video Series:   Springheel's Modules   *   Speedbuild Challenge   *   New Mappers Workshop  *   Building Traps

#47 Bikerdude

Bikerdude

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 20320 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:44 AM

We choose to do this for free and nobody owes us anything for making that choice, but every complaint, every argument, every casual suggestion to "just do more" adds up until the question, "why am I still doing this?" starts to have no good answer.

I can only hope this never comes to pass for the core people on the team.

but on a positive note I have volunteered to do a weekly news feed/update for the campaign to keep all you taffers salivated, but more importantly to drum up the ever present need for external interest.

#48 SeriousToni

SeriousToni

    Beginner Contest 2012 Winner

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2207 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:19 AM

Suffice to say that I was brought to the sudden realization that the project is too concentrated in the hands of too few people. While there are lots of great people contributing here and there, there are only about half a dozen people who are doing the heavy lifting on a regular basis. What would happen to future AI updates if grayman got burned out? Who would take over making new character models or animating if I didn't want to do it anymore? Who would keep updating DR if greebo wanted to move on? Etc.


I can't say what will happen in the future, but I know that people will grow in time. This means the beginners learn from the elite as well as the elite will go on someday and get replaced by the once beginners. Everyone finds his / her place and will get better there. People change, but they also get replaced.
"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

#49 nbohr1more

nbohr1more

    Darkmod PR, Wordsmith

  • Development Role
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 9502 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:32 AM

I always find it absurd that anyone would lob harsh criticism at TDM. The sheer amount of generosity that is on display here makes such critical statements akin to someone
complaining about the flavor of Mother Teresa's rice for the poor. It's just plain crazy IMHO.

That said, there is this large contingent who would prefer that all TDM developers of every stripe work on a campaign for a very very very long time with no consideration for how long it
would take. "They" are not worried about whether the mod seems dead or no missions are seen for years and years. These same folks continue to wait for things like the "Black Mesa" mod for HL2.
It's not necessarily a knock on TDM, it's just a different outlook on how much patience and perseverance is acceptable. These folks would wait years for a single roof to be constructed or a small patch of road.
They simply do not fret the perception of inactivity or glacial updates.

I am not requesting anything more than what has already been provided (who could?) but I would happily wait as well if such a treasure were offered. Who wouldn't, it's free after all?
These folks are playing the game of "build me a full-size free game" and are trying to mask this greedy request as part of mod promotion\popularity...
It sure as hell would improve the ratings for the mod, but who are they to make such demands. Be happy you get the free rice :)
Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

http://www.indiedb.c...ds/the-dark-mod

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

#50 Tels

Tels

    Mod hero

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 15024 posts

Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:53 PM

Although my comment that started this all off was not hypothetical, I didn't mean to suggest the mod was in imminent danger of dying.

Suffice to say that I was brought to the sudden realization that the project is too concentrated in the hands of too few people. While there are lots of great people contributing here and there, there are only about half a dozen people who are doing the heavy lifting on a regular basis. What would happen to future AI updates if grayman got burned out? Who would take over making new character models or animating if I didn't want to do it anymore? Who would keep updating DR if greebo wanted to move on? Etc.

Looking at our mission statistics, we have three mappers, Sotha, Jesps and Bikerdude, who together are responsible for _30%_ of all our existing missions. That's a ridiculous amount of consolidation. It's great that we have new mappers coming on board for the latest contest, but for the last year and a quarter, only five new people have released a mission. Everyone else is either one of our experienced mappers or a developer. Five new mappers in 15 months is not encouraging. Sotha has already announced that he's retiring, and overall our mission releases keep getting further apart. Too few people are responsible for too much of the work.


Just remind me that we should never ever have a real life meeting where all the "core" TDM developers and mappers travel in the same bus :D

Joking aside, I think you described the situation quite good, and I was trying to say the same (remember when I asked about the SVN stats?)

I find it darkly amusing that a thread started by the possibility of core members burning out because of all the work they're doing has resulted in two main "solutions" (a campaign and making TDM standalone) both of which require massive amounts of further work by the same members. <_<


Oh yeah.. :rolleyes:

I was under the impression that standalone TDM would be a 'long way off' but if you have made that much progress already it is very encouraging.


Tels must be talking about the code part of making TDM standalone, because we are nowhere near close to replacing half the assets that would need replacing. When someone presents a fully sculpted and rigged zombie with the 30+ animations it would need, then I'll start feeling optimistic about that possibility.


Yes, I meant we have the source (biggest step nec!), we have integrated it in our code (greebo did all the work, w/o him it wouldn't have happened yet), and the AI was rewritten (a long time ago, I think even before v1.0) to use the SDK instead the id scripts (replacing them would have been a HUGE task). And all I did was the small part of cleaning up the rest so you can load the menu.

Loading a mission still crashes (probably just needs a few central textures).

So, yes I think we have come a long way (and mostly it was not my work). And no, as Springheel said, it is still far from complete - you could maybe play any mission w/o a zombie, but the zombies would still be missing.

It is hard to quantify, but in my mind, a missing zombie is MUCH easier replaced than lets say the missing source code (impossible to generate w/o id's support), or just imagine how much work we had to do if our AI was still using the D3 scripts. So I say the biggest work is done, but still, we need a lot of help.

And that's the thing. I'm sure all of us in the development team have asked this question multiple times. I don't think people realize how much time and effort the few remaining developers put into each mod update, and how frequently the effort outweighs the payoff. We choose to do this for free and nobody owes us anything for making that choice, but every complaint, every argument, every casual suggestion to "just do more" adds up until the question, "why am I still doing this?" starts to have no good answer.


Exactly. When I look back and see a couple hundred to thousands hours poured into TDM for one year - and all I get is "oh when are you done with X and when do you start with feature Y", then I really question my motivation. For now I am coming back like a crack-addict every week again - but I am not sure for how long, and if it wouldn't have even been better if I left a year ago for everyone.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users