MORE THAN JUST STEALTH!

[7upMan]

I absolutely cannot agree with DX:HR being disappointing. For me, overall, it's one of the best games ever made. Sure, there are some things I don't like (like nobody cares if I kill everything in sight or just stun them, for example), but that's just minor glitches.

[demagogue]

That and I think that the big bad game industry has been utterly oblivious to the psychology of wrapping someone up in fiction. I think perhaps that some of the technical limitations of games Circa 2000 chanced upon a sweet spot that played to their advantage in that the player's imagination was piqued, and then had to fill in the many gaps

 

Or they're all too knowledgeable about the psychology of marketing and "institutionalized fun" for self-declared gamers, to which the studios circa 1994-2001 were still oblivious, still being caught up in the hobby-gamer culture of the previous era, where devs and players were part of the same team exploring the boundaries of this new medium together and pushing imagination and inspiration as far as they'd go. Now it's not like that; now it's providing a product the market expects at arm's length. When you read the post-mortems of all the games we love from that era, you see very quickly the culture in which those games were made and why it lived such a short life.

[jaxa]

Well Skyrim's bugs were fixed a lot faster this time around. And it's sure to have some great mods soon too (although the editor was released much later than expected).

[jay pettitt]

I absolutely cannot agree with DX:HR being disappointing

 

Oh I think it's a good game. Certainly one of the best of its sort in the last decade or so. Inventing a way of getting from one side of a room to the other and not screwing up is an intriguing challenge. But it left me flat emotionally and intellectually. I'm not a better person because DX:HR happened.

 

Anyhow, I'm downloading Botanicula, and I fully expect it to be lovely.

It downloaded. I played 30 seconds, and then had to switch it off so I can giggle with silly happiness. This confection I will save for later.

Edited April 20, 2012 by jay pettitt

[New Horizon]

My feelings on DX:HR is that it was a game with a lot of flash and the illusion of substance.

[Melan]

My feelings on DX:HR is that it was a game with a lot of flash and the illusion of substance.

Does that mean, "a perfect encapsulation of cyberpunk"?

[Sotha]

Has anyone considered the possibility that modern games do not appeal to us because we are so old. I'm suggesting that getting utterly immersed in a game is something a kid can do, but once you are old enough, you just can't get there. Or you can but you still realize 'it is just a game' and you play while you wait for the dishwasher to finish. When I was a kid and I played doom, it was me trapped in a mars base invaded by zombies, the immersion was so strong.

 

Sort of same situation with movies. When I was a teen I noticed that 'really good' movies in my opinion were always bashed by the critics. I did not like at all the movies the critcis liked. Nowadays it is sort of vice versa. Tastes mature.

[7upMan]

My feelings on DX:HR is that it was [...] the illusion of substance.

 

Can you go deeper on that? I haven't finished yet (but I'm in the last stage, so that shouldn't take too long), and unless the game screws up in the last minutes, my experience seems to be the complete opposite of yours.

[Melan]

Has anyone considered the possibility that modern games do not appeal to us because we are so old.

I would accept that viewpoint if "immersive sims" after the original Deus Ex added to the complexity and possibilities of interaction the ones around 2000 offered. But we did not get that. DX:IW did not do that, TDS did not do that, and Bioshock did not do that. They took steps back in complexity, openness and level design. That's more than just fond memories. And then I got a free thing like The Nameless Mod, and bam, there it was again, and it was even beyond the original DX in almost all respects, all tremendously enjoyable despite the thoroughly dumb basic concept.

[jay pettitt]

Has anyone considered the possibility that modern games do not appeal to us because we are so old. I'm suggesting that getting utterly immersed in a game is something a kid can do, but once you are old enough, you just can't get there. Or you can but you still realize 'it is just a game' and you play while you wait for the dishwasher to finish. When I was a kid and I played doom, it was me trapped in a mars base invaded by zombies, the immersion was so strong.

 

Sort of same situation with movies. When I was a teen I noticed that 'really good' movies in my opinion were always bashed by the critics. I did not like at all the movies the critcis liked. Nowadays it is sort of vice versa. Tastes mature.

 

I have indeed considered it. And then falsified it utterly with 30 seconds of Botanicula.

 

I may be a [slightly] tougher audience and be looking for something a bit more worldly than power fantasies in my old age - by my heart isn't quite dead yet. Press the right buttons and my brain is putty.

Edited April 20, 2012 by jay pettitt

[Bikerdude]

30 seconds of Botanicula.

Watched a vid on youtube, looks good :-)

[lost_soul]

@Sotha: I considered that a wile ago, but it can't be accurate. I still have lots of fun playing maps for old games like Duke3D like this one in particular.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4NCJ06OnCU

 

It starts small, but it is a massive level where you can spend upwards of fourty minutes figuring the place out. There are two different train systems with separate tracks entirely, and the game takes place inside, outside, in vents, all over the place. You can see through all the windows, there are lots of destructable environments, and secrets to find. The industry has just stopped producing levels like this.

[demagogue]

I love riding horseback around the Skyrim world. I wish there were a way to temporarily turn off monster hostility so I didn't have to bash wolves when I'm in sightseeing mode, and if ever a world could use megatextures it's this one. But the openness of its gameworld is everything I dreamed about as a kid, and I hope it sets the standard. The gameplay and story are good enough for me. I'd like to see more story depth too, but at least I can dream about modding in my own story and mechanics (very often I actually script them out for its own sake, even knowing I can't build it), and in that respect the world and mechanics are good fodder.

 

I think that's my usual attitude towards contemporary games... Wow, this world and these mechanics, tweaked a little bit, would be an awesome platform for *this idea* that's inspirational (nevermind the game itself doesn't push its own potential). Not that this is a strange idea to any of you; this is of course a core idea behind Dark Mod, and the modding ethos generally. New games are a way to see new worlds and mechanics and get new insights into how the medium works. So I'll always love to get into new gameworlds for that reason alone. I wouldn't even say I'm resigned to contemporary games being a little hollow for the audience; I just understand the culture and go straight to the world and mechanics for my own edification without fretting too much about it, and enjoying the story it does offer for what it is.

 

I haven't played DX:HR yet. It's in my queue of course. I like what I see from the playthrough videos, though, in just the way I mentioned.I'm loving the world it's made, and the level design is clever and has some good ideas. Would be a great platform for a some good storytelling and gameplay, lol.

 

Has anyone considered the possibility that modern games do not appeal to us because we are so old. I'm suggesting that getting utterly immersed in a game is something a kid can do, but once you are old enough, you just can't get there.

 

This is definitely part of it. I think it's two things coming together that you can't fully separate, the spirit of your age/generation (like when you're in high school or college) and the spirit of your time (like early 90s), so it's not just when you're a kid, but when you're a kid of the early 90s and a game is coming out right at the right time that captures the whole spirit. And then when you change the era and your age, you pull playing the game out of its context and into another one, and it's something you can definitely notice. I notice it playing old games; they can still be good if they're appealing to timeless things, but a lot of times they wear their spirit like an old coat.

 

Edit: Forgot to add my point -- Yeah but no, like Melan was saying, even though games do wear their spirits like old coats, at the same time inspirational concepts are inspirational in all eras and people of all ages (after adolescence)... big open, agnostic worlds; gameplay that doesn't hold our hand; a world and story that really expands our horizons. They still come out of a time & place, but their ideas last... Sort of like we still look to the Lost Generation novels or Surrealist art and our mind's soar, even though those came out of definite time & place that was special (Interwar Paris!) and you can't totally recapture. The first generation of first-person 3D games were like that. Then again, for modding & indie games, or whatever is coming up that they're leading into (not sure yet what it is), we're kind of in a golden age right now I think. There's a lot of inspiring creation going on in the back nooks and corners of cyberspace these days if you know where to look.

[Diego]

Has anyone considered the possibility that modern games do not appeal to us because we are so old. I'm suggesting that getting utterly immersed in a game is something a kid can do, but once you are old enough, you just can't get there.

 

Age definitely has influence, but it has nothing to do with immersion. It's like enjoying rock as a teenager and classical music later on. Being able to immerse yourself in a story is not something you can lose!

 

However, most of the industry revolves around its biggest audience: teenagers. I did love games with gore and action and stuff like that. Take Streets of Rage, for example, this was one of my favorite games! it's a mindless beat'em up and walk to the right game. Although the technology improved, this is basically the same target audience and the same aspects repeated over and over again. It takes time for the industry to explore other realms, but the 30 years old gamer definitely exists, and he is being slowly studied and explored. I think the independent developers play an important role here, as they usually ARE the 30 years old gamers, and they are basically exploring this new territory. Portal is a good example, it came from indie game Narbacular drop, and it seems made for a more mature audience.

 

This has nothing to do with dumb, intelligent, superior or inferior games.. We just like different things depending on our age.

[STiFU]

Another example for an excellent indie production is Amnesia. After a very long time, this game managed to completely immerse me again!! I was actually afraid to move on occasionally (the last game managing to do that was Silent Hill 2 for me)... Loved it!! Twice so far! =) So even as an adult, it is still possible to be immersed. I'll admit though, I haven't reached my 30's yet (slowly getting there), so you might consider me not as mature as yourselves...

 

But I don't think the appeal to modern games has necessarily something to do with age. After all, games in fact got simpler (like Melan said) and also, we just like to see new gaming concepts and not the same basic principles over and over again. So it's the experience we have with gaming rather than our age, that prevents us from enjoying most new games. When we were young, everything was new to everyone, but nowadays it boils down to recycling.

 

I do agree though that the industry is mostly marketing their games to the broad market, the teenagers. But here and there, there are still good new and innovative games, possibly even appealing to both teenagers and adults. I really loved Mirror's Edge for it's novelty for example. (Many people might disagree on this example, but I like to believe the number of people agreeing is equally big )

 

By the way: Also enjoyed DX3 quite a bit and am still loving Skyrim.

 

Further great games in the last years: Witcher, LA Noir, Hitman Bloodmoney, Condemned (ok this one is a bit older)

[Diego]

I love Mirror's Edge! But it's disappointing.

 

I think the problem with it was that the developers didn't have enough faith in what they've made.

 

Using Portal as an example again, I remember replaying it with the commentary on and one part really impressed me: Comes a part that the player finds himself in a huge room and then several 'windows' open with turrents inside, making the player an easy target. The comment said something like "we wanted this part to be very climatic and action oriented! There was no other way out of it without running and getting hit a few times. But the betatesters didn't seem very interested in that kind of gameplay.. instead, they seemed to enjoy portaling their way behind the turrets and kicking them one by one. So we changed this whole part to make it more like a puzzle, where the player would have to find the best order to take them out"

 

To me, this shows that they totally embraced their creation! It was different from everything they've made so far so they had only the beta testers to rely on what was working and what wasn't. It's a dangerous BET. And this is what I mean when I say that Mirror's Edge developers didn't believed in their product. There are several parts in ME where it's dead clear it was made for an FPS! screw this running and jumping, give her a gun and some people to shoot. It's sad to see that even the 2d flash version of the game did a better job in level design.

[Melan]

I found Mirror's Edge a very good game. It did what it set out to do very well, and I kinda-sorta wish there was a sequel to it (only "kinda-sorta" because I know they would put more guns and more fighting in it to sell better, and compromise what made it good in the first place). It is not Thief... but not every game needs to be Thief.

[demagogue]

I liked Mirror's Edge a lot too. Maybe we're all chickens if our favorite games are "running" and "hiding" from trouble, haha, but really the FPS mechanic is so worn and the running & hiding mechanics so full of possibilities... it makes me wonder why the rest of the world hasn't caught on to this.

[pusianka]

Me thinks that as a thief fan based on TDS and Darkmod, you are very unoptimistic about any changes. Sure thi4f won't be like thief 1 and 2, that was obvious the moment it was announced, the thing is to take thi4f for what it is. It will probably be easier in many terms but if its still gonna have some enjoyable gameplay features and thief like plot then it can be interesting. One thing is sure, it won't be competitive to TDM, it can be even used for TDM's buisnesses.

[STiFU]

I found Mirror's Edge a very good game. It did what it set out to do very well, and I kinda-sorta wish there was a sequel to it

Did you know, there is a sequel planned? I guess we'll still have to wait some time, but it sounds promising... Better than the "Mirror's Edge is an important franchise to us" from before.

[Midnight]

Mirrors Edge was great. Apart from the occasional unnecessary shooty bits, my main disappointment with it was the story was very light and could have been explored more deeply. I also would have liked more interaction with NPCs who weren't hostile, the world was on the verge of being incredibly immersive but they didnt put enough background into it. Despite this, I loved it. It's a shame it was poorly received (in the media at least), it's the kind of game that could have had a major influence on the industry in a positive direction.

[demagogue]

Also Mirror's Edge has fan maps!

That's going to give it some serious bonus points right there.

[ungoliant]

Found out what the "more" in "more than just stealth" stands for.

 

 

Look at those lockpicks and tell me that wasn't designed for thief4. This was from http://conceptartworld.com/?p=611. The guy works for EM. I pray his other art in that article is not related to t4, lol.

Soooooo.... guns. In Thi4f. wonderful.

 

On a positive note, the future of TDM is pretty much secure.

Edited April 26, 2012 by ungoliant

[Xarg]

Everything in that picture looks good except the gun :/ (which also looks good, but not in my Thief 4 experience please)

[SiyahParsomen]

I've no issues: if we have steam robots and electric lights, of course we can have gun!