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Thief 2 fan patch - V1.19


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#76 lowenz

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 10:23 AM

the shadows wont have any colour banding

Yes, no more that orrible banding.

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.


#77 simplen00b

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 11:12 AM

I don't get why they say there's no need to play TDM anymore, lol

I guess cuz some people think the only difference between T2 and TDM is the visuals.

#78 ungoliant

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 01:03 PM

I guess cuz some people think the only difference between T2 and TDM is the visuals.


It's definitely hard to quantify in concrete terms. I get busted, lost, or killed in T2 a lot, but I can stomp all over TDM FM's like nobodys business. There's a lot of visual, audio, and general gameplay mechanics that are vastly different. All the rest is just engine limitations vs intellectual property limitations.

#79 Bikerdude

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 01:35 PM

I get busted, lost, or killed in T2 a lot, but I can stomp all over TDM FM's like nobodys business.

Thats coz us mappers are going easy on you players!, but fear not becaise with 1.08 things are going to be a lot more interesting!

#80 7upMan

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 01:45 PM

Worth? It's free, and it's an update for Thief 1, 2 and System Shock 2. It's totally worth.


You misunderstand me. I have very limited time to play games, so I'd like to be sure that the experience is worth it. I know that the Dark engine will never look like, say, Dark Mod, but if it's an improvement like Black Mesa Source over Half-Life 1: Source, then I'll gladly try it out (and I do NOT mean it just graphics-wise). From what I read here, while the graphics (and the overall look & feel) have been improved a bit, the AI has been kept untouched. And as a TDM player, I expect the AI to be at least on the level of TDM. This doesn't seem to have happened yet.
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#81 New Horizon

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 01:58 PM

To me it seems the authors intent was to preserve the games and simply allow them to play on modern hardware. Personally, I wouldn't have wanted them to mess with the Thief AI, there are mods for that.

#82 Melan

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 02:13 PM

I am looking forward to combining the v1.19 patch with the HD texture mod.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#83 brethren

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 03:00 PM

From what I read here, while the graphics (and the overall look & feel) have been improved a bit, the AI has been kept untouched. And as a TDM player, I expect the AI to be at least on the level of TDM. This doesn't seem to have happened yet.

Thief gameplay has not really been touched much, the patch is mostly about getting Thief to work properly on modern hardware, and from an editing standpoint, extenidng/expanding some of the old limitations within dromed that kept FM authors handcuffed. Future Thief FMs will likely be greatly improved in the graphics department.

Re: TDM AI though - this could be a opening a huge can of worms, but is TDM AI exceedingly more sophisticated than Thief AI? Tbh, I never really noticed anything drastic while playing both. And since TDM is a mod, I assume that most of it was just modeled after Thief AI. Am I wrong, or missing something here? Or, 7upman, are you mainly referring to game difficulty when you say AI?

#84 simplen00b

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 05:42 PM

Re: TDM AI though - this could be a opening a huge can of worms, but is TDM AI exceedingly more sophisticated than Thief AI? Tbh, I never really noticed anything drastic while playing both.

Dunno about exceedingly more sophisticated - I think the main difference is greater sensitivity, although there are those restrictions about helmets/levels of alert etc. Oh yeah, and their ability to relight torches and candles at times of huge inconvenience. Could be wrong but I can't see anyone being able to do a speed run through an average TDM mission like you can in some of the Thief missions.


And it only becomes a can of worms if you start taking the position that preferring Game A makes you an intrinsically superior person to someone who doesn't (not that that would ever happen on an internet forum, of course). No but seriously, if I ever started believing that preferring TDM made me a better person than someone who preferred T1/T2/whatever, you have permission to take me outside and shoot me, or at least hold me down while someone else kicks me on the knee.

And (finally getting back on OT) I have just tried to install T2 on my superduper laptop.

And it won't let me. Not compatible with my version of Windows.

Gonna go to bed.

#85 Springheel

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 06:41 PM

Actually, I think TDM AI are more sophisticated in many ways compared to AI in T1/2:

1. They don't cheat when searching for you, but actually calculate search points based on what would be good hiding places.

2. They can relight lights.

3. They can notice and get suspicious about missing loot, open doors, or suspicious lights out.

4. They can notice ropes and look up to see if anyone is on it.

5. They don't forget that they've seen evidence of an intruder, and stay alert even after going back to their route.

6. They warn allies if they've seen anything suspicious, and the ally becomes more alert because of the warning.

7. They are actually affected by things that would block their vision, like hoods or eyepatches.

8. They can do Random Interesting Things on their patrols.

9. They can sit and/or sleep as part of a patrol.

10. They can use elevators!

11. They can do something more than just shake their fist if the player is standing on a table.

I'm sure there are other things I'm forgetting.
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#86 brethren

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 11:22 PM

And (finally getting back on OT) I have just tried to install T2 on my superduper laptop.
And it won't let me. Not compatible with my version of Windows.


What version are you using? Should work on anything newer than Win 98. Did you install using Tafferpatcher and then the new 1.19 patch?

Actually, I think TDM AI are more sophisticated in many ways compared to AI in T1/2:


Thanks Springheel, that's the kind of specifics I was looking for. I know I've seen Thief AI do #2, 3, and 4, but I'm pretty sure they were done by a custom script and not the default AI. I guess #6 as well, usually a Bystander warning a guard if they see the player.

#87 demagogue

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:44 AM

I think there are two reasons why TDM AI are generally better than T2 AI.
It's not that we have better imaginations or anything like that. It's just...
1) AI processing hogs resources quite a bit, and the T2 team didn't have as much liberty to take up resources (with the systems of their time) that we did. So we can just have more systems doing more work. (I noticed this with the combat system. Looking at T2's sourcecode, their combat is really pretty simple -- run to the player & face him, swing, and damage is a simple function of angle -- and ours is much more involved.); and
2) The fact TDM is open source. The AI from TDM 1.0 were good, but there have been a ton of tweaks making them better & better over later editions. There is a little AI tweaking for T2 you can do through dromed (and even then, just for one FM), but most of it's locked in the sourcecode, so it hasn't had the chance to improve over time. Although now that T2 is "open" too, people can fix things if they like.

Edit: One thing in T2's defense. I was playing an FM recently (Disorientation), and an AI commented about a torch being out (that I'd doused), and it made me smile. I didn't remember they could do that, but they can. I still have a lot of affection for the T2 AI, and actually I hope they don't get changed too much, even if it's possible.
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#88 elwing

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:07 AM

11. They can do something more than just shake their fist if the player is standing on a table.


that's definitely part of thief charm :D I love getting our of range and hear the guards cursing me...

Thats coz us mappers are going easy on you players!


tell that to my stealth score :D

#89 Melan

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 02:46 AM

Actually, I think TDM AI are more sophisticated in many ways compared to AI in T1/2:
...
I'm sure there are other things I'm forgetting.

That's a handful. I think the criticism some have levelled at the TDM AI has less to do with artificial intelligence, and more with artificial stupidity - their excellent senses, blackjack-resistance and unnatural reaction time from older versions come to my mind. This is gone in 1.08, though, with overall more human behaviour. I wonder if a much later version down the line could have AI that would noticably and consistently make bad decisions...
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#90 lowenz

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 02:49 AM

*List*

In future release maybe is it possible to add the ability to notice a guard (knocked/killed and moved by the player) weapon (sword, bow, etc.) staying alone on the ground?

Edited by lowenz, 02 October 2012 - 02:51 AM.

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.


#91 7upMan

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:21 AM

Or, 7upman, are you mainly referring to game difficulty when you say AI?


Yes. See, I stopped playing Thief 2 FMs because the AI was so ridiculously limited. I mean, I could ghost the entire map without getting into real trouble, which is way more difficult in TDM. By the way, I once witnessed a guard re-lighting torches in vanilla Thief 2, iirc. Also, I remember that there are scripts for guard AI in T2 that enables them to switch on electric lights.

Anyway, part of the improvements I'm talking about will be the use of shaders to achieve effects like HDR lite for TDM. Think back to when HDR lite came out: the old, already released maps now looked completely different and infinitely better, much more life-like. I'm hoping for changes of this magnitude for T1/T2. Better particles and 32 bit rendering are already a huge step forward, but I guess I'll postpone playing those games until the aforementioned improvements are made.
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#92 RPGista

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:34 AM

AI will also soon be able to be alerted, damaged and even KOed by objects thrown at them; there is WIP to make them able to distinguish between neutral areas where the player is to be ignored as a civillian, and normal, forbidden areas where he is the enemy; relating to lowenz's comment (if that's how I understood it), there was discussion on making AI able to notice missing patrolling friends if they are gone for too long (taken out by the player), aswell as making them able to spot moving objects the player is holding or moving about, maybe those will be looked upon in the future - that's the great thing about TDM's AI, it is constantly growing and becoming more detailed (all you have to do is take a look at any of the changelogs for each version).

#93 Sotha

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:35 AM

making AI able to notice missing patrolling friends if they are gone for too long (taken out by the player)


This could be done easily by the mapper even now. Killing or KOing a guard would trigger a timer. When the timer runs out a stationary guard is given new targets. Limitation is that it cannot be done for a guard who is already on the move, only guards who have no targets.

With scripting you can point something rational for the AI to do when friends are missing: play a conversation where AI walks around yelling "yoohoo, where are you Paulie?" After looking around for a while AI would give up "This ain't right: Paulie is always punctual... I'd better go tell the boys at the guardhouse" and go to the guard room "Paulie has gone missing, I suspect we have intruders." And then the guard room guys are dropped into a clever RIT network designed for generally patrolling guards.

This kind of stuff should be done with scripting rather that intrinsic AI behavior: missions would break if AIs would watch each other's movements. The player would require a warning too: "Mike and Paulie have been working as a guard pair for years: they are sure to notice each other's absence."

The thing why TDM mapping is addictive is that you can do almost ANYTHING you can imagine. The true potential has yet been only grazed. This applies to other things than AI too.
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#94 Springheel

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:46 AM

In future release maybe is it possible to add the ability to notice a guard (knocked/killed and moved by the player) weapon (sword, bow, etc.) staying alone on the ground?


Actually, they already do notice weapons lying around, or arrows stuck into things. I forgot to mention that.
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#95 brethren

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:05 AM

Yes. See, I stopped playing Thief 2 FMs because the AI was so ridiculously limited. I mean, I could ghost the entire map without getting into real trouble, which is way more difficult in TDM.


Strange as it sounds, I actually think most diehard Thief fans who are still playing the game don't play for the stealth challenge at all. I think most play for the exploration and puzzle solving aspects of Thief FMs. This is why the majority have not latched on to TDM yet, it's one or two steps higher on the stealth difficulty curve and they don't enjoy it. Kind of a strange scenario for the the title that started stealth gaming, but I think it's true.

#96 Melan

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:27 AM

That may be right. My own enjoyment of fan missions has shifted towards exploration; and since I took up editing, the appreciation of others' editing skills. It is not exactly the same kind of enjoyment I got out of the games in 1999... but it is enjoyment nevertheless.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#97 ungoliant

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:42 AM

I wonder if a much later version down the line could have AI that would noticably and consistently make bad decisions...

Agree, that would be cool. Guard struck with arrow in the shoulder is noticeably disoriented, doesn't instantly spot the player, starts searching for the player in the wrong direction.

#98 simplen00b

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:48 AM

What version are you using? Should work on anything newer than Win 98. Did you install using Tafferpatcher and then the new 1.19 patch?

All sorted now - I was trying to install from an iso image of my T2 CD (I hate having to keep the CD in the drive) and it seems it was an issue with MagicISO; tried it with Virtual CloneDrive and it installed fine. Then I just followed the instructions for the 1.19 patch and it all seems to be working OK. Initial impression from playing a few minutes of Running Interference: (i) I think it does look better than I remembered (once I adjusted the resolution) - not as grainy? - but it's difficult to quantify; (ii) controls seem slightly more sluggish, especially with carrying bodies - I feel like I'm underwater; (iii) I've forgotten a lot of the T2 controls :( ; (iv) font of hints/inventory lists is tiddly but pretty sure I've read that can be adjusted; (v) Ah, the joy of running full-tilt along a corridor up behind a guard and coshing him before he has the chance to do anything except say "Uh?". Which brings us back to: -

Springheel, on 01 October 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:
*List*

Yeah, that's pretty comprehensive. (I know the AI in TDS would notice extinguished lights/missing loot, but I don't remember them ever going into alert about it.) I'm just aware that for some people, your list makes TDM AI more frustrating, not 'better'. But hey, thems the breaks, waddya gonna do (etc etc)

Strange as it sounds, I actually think most diehard Thief fans who are still playing the game don't play for the stealth challenge at all.

I'm nowhere near being an authority on T2 FMs, but having recently watched Fenn P's videos of King's Story and Rose Cottage, it wouldn't surprise me. I enjoyed watching the videos, but I think playing them would have driven me potty. I much more love the 'creeping around wondering if I'm going to get busted' element of Thief.

#99 Springheel

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:57 AM

Kind of a strange scenario for the the title that started stealth gaming, but I think it's true.


That's an interesting observation that would explain a lot.
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#100 lost_soul

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:53 PM

Actually, I think TDM AI are more sophisticated in many ways compared to AI in T1/2:
....


12. The TDM guards fight much better than the Thief 1/2 guards. In T1/2, you can just circle strafe around a guard in a sword fight and kick his butt while he hopelessly swings where you used to be. It makes me laugh when I get them turned completely around from me..

13. No lean-and-jack cheating. In t1/2, you could fully alert a guard and dash off into the shadows. He would give chase, then enter search mode, and you can lean out and blackjack him... all in about 8 seconds.

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