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Fan Mission: The Builder Roads by Obsttorte (2013/01/19)


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Poll: Evaluation (50 member(s) have cast votes)

Gameplay

  1. Poor (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Moderate (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Good (17 votes [34.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 34.00%

  4. Excellent (32 votes [64.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 64.00%

  5. Near Perfect (1 votes [2.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.00%

Aesthetics

  1. Poor (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Moderate (3 votes [6.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.00%

  3. Good (26 votes [52.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 52.00%

  4. Excellent (20 votes [40.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

  5. Near Perfect (1 votes [2.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.00%

Story

  1. Poor (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Moderate (3 votes [6.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.00%

  3. Good (30 votes [60.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 60.00%

  4. Excellent (17 votes [34.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 34.00%

  5. Near Perfect (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#51 Obsttorte

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:31 AM

I guess I put 40-50 hours in it plus some extra hours for fixing issues reported by my beta testers. But this is only a rough guess as I didn't stop the time. ;)
FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild
WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.
Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches
Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models
My wiki articles: Obstipedia
Let's Map TDM YouTube playlist: ObstlerTube
Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

End of shameless self promotion.

#52 Springheel

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:16 PM

I had one great moment where I was trying to figure out when guards would be coming towards a particular door, and I was actually able to see them walking through the windows and time when they would get there! :)

#53 SeriousToni

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

It was very impressive for a only two weeks built map! :o I had fun sneaking around, looking through the windows and admite the nice brushwork! The story was generic but that's okay for me since the nice gameplay and visuals!

Good job! :)
"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

#54 raymeld

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:02 PM

Having great fun with this one ! Putting boxes in front of the inn door and builder door opposite whilst the AI were inside. Moving around at my leisure now!
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#55 Oldjim

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:16 PM

I didn't think of that one - must give it a go :D

#56 Sotha

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:46 PM

Just ironmanned this in the easy setting ("do not get seen at all" -objective is a bit too harsh if you plan to play without saving.)
This mission was a very intense experience. It took me 1 hr to complete with a stealth score of 13. I was always peeking behind corners, holding my breath listening at doors because of the bright lights everywhere and no tools. Good stuff! I had fun. Intense sneaking experience. Now I'm totally exhausted after being on my toes and extra careful for one hour. Gotta have some cookies and cheese before going to sleep.

Anyhow.
Spoiler

Gameplay: Good. (Without the book incident, lack of gear and AI navigation problems it would have certainly been excellent!)
Aesthetics: Moderate
Story: Good. (Well written documents cross the board, perfect amount of readables: not too few, not too much.)

Very nice mission. Thanks! It is clear you have a lot of mapping/gameplay talent!
Clipper
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#57 simplen00b

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:38 PM

Finished this last night - initially I managed to miss the priest's room which held things up a bit, but once I got in there, the rest of the mission unfolded fairly straightforwardly. Some general comments in no particular order: -
1. Liked the use of a caption appearing to give helpful info (re the two guys in the bar area). I wonder if captions could be used more often as a way of the character commenting on particular situations/problems (like Garrett's voice-overs in Thief, but you can imagine whatever voice you want :) ).
2. The mist effect in the cellar was absolutely beautiful and the screenshot doesn't do it justice.
3. I hate forced ghosting. Hate not having a blackjack. Hate it. So please consider it a great compliment that I enjoyed this mission so much I'm actually trying it in Thief mode. (I guess that being "seen" means alert level 5 - yes? I've already survived an alert level 2 anyway.)
4. The grass looks nice but is a bit weird to walk through - more like walking on top it, and sometimes I get stuck. A TDM issue I guess. Looks good though.
5. I had one of the best "Can't believe I didn't just get busted" moments ever: -
Spoiler
It's moments like that that make Thief/TDM my favourite game ever.
6. Playing in Taffer mode, I wondered if the guys in the bar were on some sort of 'slow alert' mode. Reason I wondered is that
Spoiler

7. Just on its own, it's a really good mission. As a two-week build, it's pretty awesome. Well done, Obsttorte, and many thanks.

#58 Obsttorte

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:57 PM

Spoiler

Windows...

I'm sorry for that. I didn't knew of that problem before I've released the mission. :blush:
FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild
WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.
Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches
Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models
My wiki articles: Obstipedia
Let's Map TDM YouTube playlist: ObstlerTube
Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

End of shameless self promotion.

#59 Baddcog

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:12 PM

Is the grass non-solid? If not that should fix any issues. I didn't really play in it, walked through a little but that was all.

--@Sotha, i don't particularly like the idea of object highlights. Seems kind of cheap to me. Better just to have thing not placed in impossible places. Just because you missed one book that was clearly on top of a desk doesn't mean you should nerf your maps for all players.
Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

#60 AluminumHaste

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:18 AM

I just finished this yesterday on Expert, Stealth score of 4 and like 98% loot, I couldn't for the life of me get into the priests locked table. I even tried cheating at one point and used the console to show entities and all sorts of stuff but couldn't figure it out.

Great mission btw.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#61 Melan

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:49 AM

--@Sotha, i don't particularly like the idea of object highlights. Seems kind of cheap to me. Better just to have thing not placed in impossible places. Just because you missed one book that was clearly on top of a desk doesn't mean you should nerf your maps for all players.

Loot glint in Thief 3 was one of the reasons we have TDM in the first place, so yeah, usually not a great idea. If mappers really want to draw attention to an item, there are other, more immersive ways to do it - even blunt methods like "place it on a pedestal and shine a spotlight on it" are legit.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#62 Sotha

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:14 AM

Loot glint in Thief 3 was one of the reasons we have TDM in the first place, so yeah, usually not a great idea. If mappers really want to draw attention to an item, there are other, more immersive ways to do it - even blunt methods like "place it on a pedestal and shine a spotlight on it" are legit.


Important objects should somehow be different from others. In this mission, there were a lot of moveables. They are frobable. They frob-highlight. If an important ordinary-looking object is buried among other similar looking items, it should be discernible somehow.
Either the item is on a pedestal, or it is distinctively different from the others. In the dark, a different skin is not enough.

In Glenham Tower, there was a toppled down bookcase and toppled books on the floor. Among them was the book the player was looking for. I placed a tiny light on the book so it looked important. Nobody complained. It was a better design decision than to make the player miss the important book scattered around the prop books and force them into a book hunt after they've been everywhere.

I'm not talking about flashing big red arrows here. A subtle dim light, which could just be some moonlight seeping through a crack or something will help a lot.
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#63 Baal

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:35 AM

Simple but nice mission. I wish I were able to finish a map in two weeks. Congratulations.

#64 HAL-Fan

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:59 PM

Just finished the mission and enjoyed it! :rolleyes: Even thought it is not huge and with impressive graphics, it has fine gameplay. This is something I like on TDM in general. One can do great missions, but also those which look "average" are often highly enjoyable.

#65 Obsttorte

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:49 PM

Thanks again for all the warm words (and for any criticism, it will be acknoledged :smile:.

@Sotha & In reference to object/loot highlighting: I'm not a foe to this approach in general. The problem in TDS was that it was just a bit too exegerrated. Anyways, I didn't get negative response from my beta testers according
Spoiler

This is really something player-dependent. It also happened to me that I've overseen something and it got me frustrated (a bit). But actually when looking in the specific FM threads I often must see that I'm the only one who suffered from this specific problem (but therefore other peoples had problems where I didn't).

As you are a mapper yourself you may have already noticed that it is impossible to make it perfect to everyone. But I will keep in mind what you've said when updating the map. The little light thingy is definetily a good idea.

A map: I definetily thought about making one. But then I thought that due to the size it may not be worth the effort. (Actually I only had that idea in mind as I thought it could add a bit to immersion).

Even thought it is not [...] with impressive graphics, it has fine gameplay.

Guessing from the replies I had on this and my first FM, and also taking my personal opinion in consideration, it seems that making good gameplay is something that I am definetily more skilled in then graphics. This may be caused by the fact that I prefer the first over the second; maybe because most modern games tend to make it the opposite way, who knoes.
FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild
WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.
Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches
Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models
My wiki articles: Obstipedia
Let's Map TDM YouTube playlist: ObstlerTube
Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

End of shameless self promotion.

#66 Baddcog

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:10 PM

^ to the last statement... everyone loves great graphics no doubt. The problem it takes so much time to fine tune and detail everything. I'd rather play decent looking maps with good gameplay then never play maps because they are being visually tweaked for ages.

Most of us were happy with T2 anyway, and now we have bump,spec maps, real time lighting and patches. that's quite a bump up in graphics without much more work on the mappers side for a decent looking map.

I think this map looks quite nice, the outside gives the impression of being wide open, there are nice details everywhere. As i mentioned before my only nitpick visually was that the stair railings were a bit rough. Certainly not a map breaker.
Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

#67 pwl

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:34 PM

Good but small mission Thanks Obsttorte I was needing a TDM mission so that I dont get rusty!! :rolleyes: :D

#68 simplen00b

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:06 AM

it seems that making good gameplay is something that I am definetily more skilled in then graphics.

Another +1 from me (but that isn't to say your graphics are poor). Both your missions have hit the "Wow-I-only-just-escaped-by-the-skin-of-my-teeth" sweet spot for me. B)

#69 Grubber

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:08 AM

^ to the last statement... everyone loves great graphics no doubt. The problem it takes so much time to fine tune and detail everything. I'd rather play decent looking maps with good gameplay then never play maps because they are being visually tweaked for ages.


Yes.
For me the story and gameplay choices are way more important than if the lighting is perfect or the architecture is super good looking. The architecture has to be convincing enough though. As in big enough walls but not too big, stuff like that. Or some support beams instead of magic ceilings. Or those attics with no access door big enough to haul all that old furniture in there to rot. Hehe, but even those... mistakes are not real 'mapbreakers' for me if it has enough other good things.

Recently i played some T2 maps again to see what i liked about them and if i still like them after all this time. What i saw was 2d windows, 2d bookshelves, 'fake arches', no doorhandles, and i loved it most of the time. Instead of concentrating on the visuals i just had to accept that 2d pixel-collection to be a 'real window' or closed door, not because it looked so convincing but because i wanted to believe it. Instead of crystal clear textures i had to believe those blurry pixels to be real, and i did.
When not focusing on the visual aspects too much, the game world gets so much more immersive by that gray mass that makes up it's own reality. Some young players that never enjoyed older 3d or even 2d or maybe text-based games, might not understand this immediately. Same goes if one never enjoyed reading an exciting book. But instead such person might be used to reading comic books only. It's the old original games vs new crap3dshootergenericgore thing. It's the great indie-game made by one person thing vs the commercial console zombie game that looks so good. It's the radio vs television thing also...

I enjoy a map because i want to believe it because i read it and because i hear it and not only because i see it.

So another point of interest for me for a good game/map are the sounds. Music and vocals, effects. Thief 1&2 is excellent in this area. I really miss those familiar thief sounds in TDM. Although i am happy to hear many many good new ones.

Oh and to say something thats more on topic: this map i enjoyed most because of convincing architecture and an original story/environment. Played it on shadow and had a good time. Of course i am a 'quick save, quick load' kind of player most of the time, so a forced ghosting playthrough will not frustrate me.

#70 raymeld

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:21 PM

As usual , completely lost the plot. I've
Spoiler


#71 Oldjim

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:40 PM

Spoiler


#72 raymeld

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:57 PM

Thanks Oldjim , will do !

#73 raymeld

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:55 PM

Finished , very neat little mission and many thanks to the 'builder'. I added my own style to it by
Spoiler

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#74 Obsttorte

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:58 PM

:smile:
Very shadowish.
FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild
WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.
Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches
Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models
My wiki articles: Obstipedia
Let's Map TDM YouTube playlist: ObstlerTube
Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

End of shameless self promotion.

#75 Diego

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:20 PM

One thing I disliked a bit:
Spoiler


PS: I just made this comment in the wrong thread :blush:




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