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Dark news for thief 4..


Bikerdude

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- http://www.ttlg.com/...ad.php?t=141422

 

- http://translate.goo...F&sl=auto&tl=en

 

Looks like TDM standalone is going to be the game to get even more so...

Hard to believe it will end in vain, such media coverage for demo... thief dp have began with bafford demo too. Anyways they got 100 men and 1,5 years so hope they will make it. Since they got working prototype the rest will follow

 

Edited by someTaff

What excuse do we have not to sculpt, and sculpt, and sculpt, until the job is done?

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If you think about how TDM was accomplished with only a handful of die-hard fans with a solid vision, it is kinda bizarre if they are really dropping the ball with T4 with that kind of resources they have. :blink:

It's not about money, but the dedication?

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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The models and architecture they have in the screenshots are admittedly lush. I would love having access to that caliber of assets as a mapper. So they've got a good base.

 

What I wouldn't like as a mapper is having to setup zones for shadows, wall hug & leaning, swooping, parkour clamoring, beam-lock, those kinds of things. It just saps the openness out of the map and gives it an arcade platformer flavor.

 

I wonder to what extent the crisis they're having is about core values? And what that difference in values might be? Is it dividing up like it is for the fans, or in a different way? However this game turns out, if there is something behind these rumors, I will be very interested in reading the post-mortem and hearing about what was really going on in there.

 

---------------------------------

 

Edit: Incidentally, I remember messaging Digi towards the end of the production of Dishonored, and he was talking about the team burning both ends of the candle, like people getting frayed, bickering, or burnt out... And Dishonored turned out pretty good IMO, including the level design. (Not to mention TDM has had its own flares sometimes.)

 

So I think friction is part of the nature of game development generally. You have multiple, usually very opinionated people all with their own visions having to agree on a single vision & work together to realize it... You have to expect some friction. The issue is whether the team can find a way to deal with it.

 

In our case, I think it's accurate to say love of the game did a lot (from what I read in the old threads and saw later; I wasn't around early on.) Also, TDM had a pretty solid unified vision from the start to build from... a return to classic design principles & "not like TDS" heh. It sounds like T4 from the start has had an absence of some unifying vision like that.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Edit: Incidentally, I remember messaging Digi towards the end of the production of Dishonored, and he was talking about the team burning both ends of the candle, like people getting frayed, bickering, or burnt out... And Dishonored turned out pretty good IMO, including the level design. (Not to mention TDM has had its own flares sometimes.)

 

So I think friction is part of the nature of game development generally. You have multiple, usually very opinionated people all with their own visions having to agree on a single vision & work together to realize it... You have to expect some friction. The issue is whether the team can find a way to deal with it.

 

In our case, I think it's accurate to say love of the game did a lot (from what I read in the old threads and saw later; I wasn't around early on.) Also, TDM had a pretty solid unified vision from the start to build from... a return to classic design principles & "not like TDS" heh. It sounds like T4 from the start has had an absence of some unifying vision like that.

 

Completely different situations though I think. Dishonored didn't have the constant upheaval that this game appears to have had...the overly lavish budget being blown costumes and props. I would say that after 5 + years that anyone who has been working full time on Thief must be completely disillusioned, beyond the natural burn out that would already have set in long ago. They've had no solid vision of what they were supposed to be making. One time they're making this version of the game, then it's thrown out and they're making another version. We've had passionate arguments about what mattered most to everyone here but in the end it was all for the love of what we were making. I think if we went back and looked at our design docs that we ended up pretty much exactly with what we said we were going to create....which is astonishing considering the vast distances we all worked from each other. Yet this highly trained, paid group of professionals can't complete a singular solid vision of Thief in the same amount of time it took a mod group to do it in their spare time? It's completely ridiculous.

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Yet this highly trained, paid group of professionals can't complete a singular solid vision of Thief in the same amount of time it took a mod group to do it in their spare time? It's completely ridiculous.

Its so ironic that its out the other side... I am both proud of our mod and sad that T4 wont see the light of day.

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The news has once again stirred up ideas about purchasing the thief ip for TDM, haha.

I wonder, though, if nobody on the team, past or present, profits from a donation towards the project, would it be acceptable?? for instance, anonymous donor gives $50,000 to pay Stephen Russel for VA in Crucible. Nobody on the team gets paid out a dime of it. Is this acceptable?

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@NH, Yeah, that's what I mean. Even the best of teams is still going to deal with friction and holding things together, and that's under ideal conditions. But if the T4 team doesn't have their own act together & a unified vision, and it being the different situation you mention, what hope do they have? It's just going to compound the problems and throw gas on the fire.

 

The fact that they're trained professionals and shouldn't be have these problems to start with is another thing. But they may not be as flexible with the corporate roles and marketing expectations and shifting leadership and all of that... I mean especially the rank & file people, the artists & level designers, and I sympathize more with them. The crisis of leadership it sounds like they've been having that's been dragging things out so ridiculously just sounds sad, more inexcusable, and where I feel like wanting to point blame. Of course it's their job description to juggle expectations and make tough decisions & expect a lot heat and take responsibility for it when they drop the ball, so they knew what they were signing up for.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I wonder, though, if nobody on the team, past or present, profits from a donation towards the project, would it be acceptable?? for instance, anonymous donor gives $50,000 to pay Stephen Russel for VA in Crucible. Nobody on the team gets paid out a dime of it. Is this acceptable?

 

Where's that dead horse picture again?

 

SE is never going to sell the IP to a non-corporate entity.

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I actually hope Thief4 succeeds...as long as it's out there promoting itself, we get lots of positive blowback. And it has the potential to increase exactly the kind of audience TDM wants. Since it won't have an editor, it can't be competition for us in any way.

 

If it gets cancelled, we lose a great opportunity to recruit new people to TDM.

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I actually hope Thief4 succeeds

[...]

If it gets cancelled, we lose a great opportunity to recruit new people to TDM.

And even if it comes out and is not good, people may think that the whole genre sucks, what wouldn't be much good for us either.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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I wonder if its been messed with by outside forces, eg console companies like to put their own input into games, and will usually want the game to go their way than the way that would have been originally designed, TDM isn't messed around by console companies. There's some interviews online from people who have made games for years and before the console companies appeared and they usually complain that the reason why they've left a company they've been with for most of their life is due to interference in the game making process by a console company.

 

if am barking up the wrong tree its due to having had to read the translation from the dark fate site as ttlg.com is offline. but thats the jist am reading from whats written there.

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I suspect the sunk costs are too much to just cancel it at this point. There may be friction & issues, but I'm sure they can still pull a game out of it.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I am not entirely surprised: the T4 preview materials have shown us a game without a strong vision. Dropping much of the Thief canon in favour of generic ideas is a sign that the developers weren't confident in their game.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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just sounds like they really have no idea what they're doing. All they seem to know is that thief was a stealth game, but they've removed all but the stealth. but they can't get it to work in the engine they're using. sounds like TDS again.

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I agree with Melan and stumpy coments, if you don't know what you will do with a game then don't do it simple. They have everything they need, they have enough people to do a game, but guess what... that isn't enough, you also need to be confident and have a simple concept to your game. In this case Thief if they don't hadn't a concept they, should had played the games to understand what the fans (players) are expecting a thief game to be like.

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I'll go out on a limb & say the central paradigm of Thief's gameplay that made it special IMO wasn't actually the stealth per se, but gameplay minimalism, and stealth gameplay was just good vehicle to get there. You were just in put in an open simulated world and do whatever you can to fulfill objectives any way you see fit. Nothing scripted (well not much). The world isn't waiting for you to "X to win", but it's open to simulating anything you want to try that may take you closer to your goal or put you at risk.

 

Since nothing is "expected", there's no place for popups, crazy HUD, QTEs, or cheap minigames, etc. The world's main job is to simulate cause & effect, not wait for you to do what the mapper wants. That IMO was the real magic of Thief, & the stealth gameplay was the packaging. T4 of course seems to be flipping the entire paradigm on its head, taking the packaging and throwing out the core.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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This was something very special about the thief games indeed. I mean, you got a description about where you are, a map and than it's just "ok, there you are, let's go". This is one of the main reasons imo why TDS wasn't that good. The splitting of the levels cut down the number of possible ways, because the player always chooses one where he has to see the loading screen not so much (at least I did so). Is there a better way to destroy immersion?

 

The scripting thingy is something that is just in mode somehow (is this said so in english?). I mean, it can be cool, you just have to look at RPGista's FM. But in todays games you have it every 30 seconds. It's more like watching a video then playing a game.

 

I hope for better days, but I fear they are gone. :mellow:

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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The English term you want to use is fashion (which mode is French for), or fad. It's true, though; games seem to be quite driven by reigning fashions & "market expectations", more than even cinema or music. I guess because the stakes are higher so they have to be more risk adverse than usual.

 

Yes, scripting by itself isn't bad & can be a very good thing. You can have really cool scripted scenes that are good for storytelling or some special gameplay for special areas. What I didn't like is gameplay that's too closed, especially if it's as a general mechanic, not just special areas, which is associated with scripting but a little different point.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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The world's main job is to simulate cause & effect, not wait for you to do what the mapper wants. That IMO was the real magic of Thief, & the stealth gameplay was the packaging. T4 of course seems to be flipping the entire paradigm on its head, taking the packaging and throwing out the core.

A very good point. The main innovation of Looking Glass games, right from Ultima Underworld, was complex simulation: adding an underlying logic to the environment (sound propagation, light, act/react, stims, the AI...), and letting the player exploit these subsystems to achieve in-game goals. While their scope was limited due to gameplay concerns and feasibility (some ideas which were advertised in early promo materials, like setting fire to objects like crates, were discarded), the philosophy of letting environmental interaction drive the game is the complete opposite of the highly regulated, but limited gameplay standardisation which is at the core of modern AAA game design.

 

Also see: invisible walls blocking off game areas, instead of limiting them by architectural design. That's not how LGS would do it (unless necessary).

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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The English term you want to use is fashion

Yep, that's what I've meant. It's been a while. :smile:

 

I guess the main problem is that most of the consumers actually like the completely-scripted-please-don't-think-for-yourself-"AAA"-games we have nowadays, similar like it is with movies or music. I mean most people go to cinema and watch movies like avatar or whatever, what may be not bad at all but isn't something I would call art (the movie, not the act of watching it ;) ).

 

Anyways, even though the mainstream stays the mainstream, the real art has always survived, in literature, music and movies. So let's hope that the same counts for games and that there will always be some developers (and maybe even some publishers) out there, who prefer art over income.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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