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Thief 4 is trash.


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#26 gnartsch

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:11 PM

Watch these trailers and realize they have always been the same. Needless killing everywhere,
Thief 1
Thief 3
Well, TDS at least had the shops that you are so fond of. Too bad they shipped the entire game without any storyline at all.
(If you replay it for the 3rd time and have to play like 70% of it before you realize that there is something like plot to be revealed about Gamall when you reach like 85%, then there is no storyline.)
I don't care much about the ranting from the game designers or whatever is published anywhere.
Same talking as ever.
Bottom line: No sooner then the game is out and you see some independent review you will know if it is worth playing.

Anyway, they clearly mentioned that a whole bunch of the 'features' like the Focus can be disabled.
It's about options. You don't want them ? Don't use them !
Why is the Lightgem for stupids? Seriously, I don not see much difference to the ones in T1,T2,TDS or TDM.

On the toher hand: if Garrett gets the time to visit a doctor to fix his vision and a cure for his 'Frankenstein' hand-animation, even better!
Anyway... no need to feel disappointed and enraged - unless you have made your payment for the game already.
Doesn't look too bad at all in the end.
Just relax and wait for 2014 to come.

Edited by gnartsch, 14 June 2013 - 03:18 PM.


#27 Kvorning

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:19 PM

In real life, you DON'T pay attention to your hands most of the time, any more than you pay attention to blinking. Your brain filters them out. When you make a game that forces you to notice them, it doesn't feel more immersive at all, at least to me. It just reminds you that you're controlling a puppet.


In real life we've got hand-eye-coordination yeah, but in games we've only got the visual and audible output, to give us the information that we normally get from the 5 main senses. It's about imitating a feel that will give the player the necessary information through just 2 of 5. In most cases that will then be visual, or in TDM we've got the audio when picking locks for instance.

#28 Springheel

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 04:03 PM

. It's about imitating a feel that will give the player the necessary information through just 2 of 5. In most cases that will then be visual,


Agreed, which is why some HUD elements are necessary. The key is to keep them as minimal as possible, which I think is what we've done in TDM. Even things like hiding the health bar when it's not in use (why do you need to see it if you aren't hurt?) were all designed with the goal of using as little screen space as possible.
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#29 demagogue

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 05:28 PM

I've always been on board with the design philosophy on the HUD & GUI for TDM, and it's one of my big complaints with contemporary PC games, that console aesthetic. I noticed it in Dishonored most recently, although you could turn a lot of it off but sadly not everything (the loot glint & absurd proportions of pick-up-ables), but even aside from the graphical aspects, it feeds into the gameplay ("Press C to QTE KO", etc). Anyway I don't have much to add to what you guys have already said about it, only that I'm in complete agreement.

To be honest though it's ubiquitous in contemporary games, so I don't see it as something devs think is within their discretion to not have, aside from throwing the bone of allowing some things to be turned off.
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#30 Kvorning

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 05:41 PM

Yeah the light-gem/crouch/stand indicator combined is very well done, and even when testing, I find it to be extremely handy and user friendly.

I'm sure the guys working on Thief are also passionate nerds though, and will do their best to satisfy everyone's need, and not just the console standards.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what direction Thief goes from this point, as this is pretty much the first game-play we've seen.

#31 zergrush

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 06:03 PM

The constant presence of the hands is annoying as hell, alright, but I do admit I like 'em on short interactive actions, like flicking switches or opening doors, even though I'm aware that slows down gameplay considerably.

#32 Obsttorte

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:42 AM

I think the "hand-problem" could be solved if they would just lower them a bit, so they wouldn't take so much of the screen size. The idea of using them as a light indicator is aslo very cool, as it would remove the need of having lightgem.
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#33 Nico A.

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 04:57 AM

Its now up to TDM to be the real Thief successor.


That's how I feel too, but I think TDM could only succeed if there would be a campaign of 10+ missions and cutscenes to play through without having to install all the seperate missions. Because otherwise I think only the modding community will notice TDM. But maybe I'm just unaware that such a campaign already exists or is in the making... I'm still very new to all things about TDM.

Agreed, which is why some HUD elements are necessary. The key is to keep them as minimal as possible, which I think is what we've done in TDM. Even things like hiding the health bar when it's not in use (why do you need to see it if you aren't hurt?) were all designed with the goal of using as little screen space as possible.


I completely agree that immersion is not created so much if the screen shows everything that would fall onto the retina of the thief character. For example, I feel more immersed when I don't see the thief's legs when walking or the hands all the time. Rather, the screen should show the psychologically relevant information. Therefore, I don't have any problems e.g. with the highlighting of usable objects, even though it's not what the eyes would actually see; but the highlighting represents the focus of attention perfectly fine. And there's the immersion.
Yet, I would have to disagree with the HUD elements being as minimalistic as possible. My opinion is, if they have to be there, let them at least look aesthetically pleasurable. I dislike the minimalistic light gem in the Thief reboot, I find the ones in TDM or Thief 1-3 way cooler. What's the point with a minimalistic element that doesn't capture the atmosphere of the game? In kinda the same fashion I noticed in TDM that obviously the aim was to hide the inventory and the weapon icons as good as possible. But for me it doesn't look nice that way, too 2-dimensional and the text ist difficult to read for me, whereas I liked the inventory symbols in the first two Thief titles waaayy better.
But I fear it is, as I said, an aesthetics issue and you can't really argue about that.

#34 SeriousToni

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:17 AM

You guys really could send E-Mails to the developers instead of forum posts ^_^
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#35 Springheel

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 06:39 AM

too 2-dimensional and the text ist difficult to read for me, whereas I liked the inventory symbols in the first two Thief titles waaayy better.


The original Thief games had models that spun around in circles, which I found a little distracting.
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#36 Goldwell

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:58 AM

Agreed, which is why some HUD elements are necessary. The key is to keep them as minimal as possible, which I think is what we've done in TDM. Even things like hiding the health bar when it's not in use (why do you need to see it if you aren't hurt?) were all designed with the goal of using as little screen space as possible.


And I absolutely love that about TDM, I love to relax and have a nice glass of scotch at the end of the day and play TDM and I find it really pulls me into the environment it's fantastic. I have never thought about what pulls me into the world if it's the FM or the game but but yeah I guess he minimal UI is a major factor because the only thing I look at are weapons or inventory items and even then it's an occasional glance but in it's own way I find it to be a very immersive experience.

I remember the first time I got into it and I was playing a couple of FM's (can't remember the names) but I remember I really felt immersed into the game and fuck it was an amazing feeling, I actually felt like I was a Thief.. I dunno if i'm crazy or I had too much to drink but I do remember the great feeling it gave me and that's what actually led me to here but yeah trailing off a bit... I guess what i'm trying to say is TDM doesn't have all the UI "features" of Thief yet achieves the thing they want (immersion)

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#37 Mortem Desino

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:03 PM

The constant presence of the hands is annoying as hell, alright, but I do admit I like 'em on short interactive actions, like flicking switches or opening doors, even though I'm aware that slows down gameplay considerably.

I agree. Their presence can be a potential tool of conveyance (like Obsttorte suggests), but right now it looks more like a mere spectacle. "Look at the body parts and how aware I am of my body-awareness!" In TDM and the previous thief games, frobbing a door open/closed is trivial and smooth and unobtrusive, just like an agile thief would work. In the Thief 4 gameplay footage, the thief bodyslides into position, stops to admire his hand as it turns the door handle, and then slinks though the door. Useless spectacle.
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#38 Obsttorte

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:14 PM

... the thief bodyslides into position ...

This is what annoys me the most. I mean there is a part during the interaction where you can't control what garrett does. Can there be something more immersion breaking? And can you interupt it, if for example you suddenly hear a guard on the other side?
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#39 Goldwell

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:26 PM

Just read a couple of interesting bits I read from people that played the demo at E3: http://forums.eidosg...ad.php?t=138032
  • Rope arrows are limited to some hot spots, yes.
  • XP goes towards upgrades for Garrett's equipment (arrows etc). That said it played a nearly non-existent part in the demo.
  • The hands are here to stay as they are extremely important to characterization of Garrett.
  • The "shroud" we saw in the gameplay was a placeholder version. The final UI is not complete and expect there to be some changes in the final game.

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#40 grayman

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:53 PM

Rope arrows are limited to some hot spots, yes.


Well, that sucks for gameplay, but it sure helps the mapper by not having to worry about the player getting to places he shouldn't be.
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#41 Springheel

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:12 PM

In the Thief 4 gameplay footage, the thief bodyslides into position,


That's the problem with body awareness that interacts with the game world. Suppose I want to lean down and frob the door open from above? Bet I can't, because then my hand animation wouldn't be in the right spot. Suppose I want to stop a door opening half-way? Bet I can't, because that would require an entirely separate animation.

The idea of using them as a light indicator is aslo very cool, as it would remove the need of having lightgem.


I don't understand how this would work. How can hands work like a lightgem? Remember that the lightgem doesn't just tell how much light is hitting you, it tells you how visible you are, which includes things like whether you're crouched, moving, or with a bukly weapon out.
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#42 Melan

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:34 PM

Well, that sucks for gameplay, but it sure helps the mapper by not having to worry about the player getting to places he shouldn't be.

LGS staff could design maps where this wasn't an issue. Fifteen years later, the designers of a vastly better funded AAA game must introduce arbitrary restrictions so nobody breaks their precious missions. That's some progress! :ph34r:
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#43 Kvorning

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:41 PM

Well the way I see it, the player model could show the level of shading, while a weapon like the short sword, would add to this perception with the fact that it's a reflective metal surface, which will catch more light.

If the player can get the sense, that holding something shiny is revealing, then that might be emulation enough. I'm sure a tutorial level would be enough to explain the game dynamics to the player, whatever they may end up being.

Regarding movement, I think that should be a self-explained notion in the game, that enemies will notice you the more you move around. Again, a tutorial map to explain.

As for the bulkiness I agree, though I still haven't tried a game where the AI can take a lighter background surface into consideration. Don't know if the technology is there yet, but that little thing has always bothered me in stealth games.

#44 Springheel

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 04:04 PM

Well, you're basically talking about turning the indicator off and just using the world around you (how much light you're in, how fast you're moving) to guesstimate how visible you are. That can be done in TDM by just turning the lightgem off, but I think that's a bit hardcore for most gamers.
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#45 Kvorning

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:18 PM

The lightning with weapons drawn in TDM is very good yeah :) I usually run around with blackjack out for that reason actually. There's still a light gem in Thief 2014, and just as in TDM, it can be disabled along with most of the UI.

I love the concept of being able to deselect the UI and have a user customized version that fits each player's preferences, and not just one overall 'correct' formular.

I'm gonna make a topic a bit later with a more 'objective name', than the one we're currently discussing. Right now there's a lot of misconceived facts being discussed, which might as well be cleared up with a few links and qoutes. :)

#46 Springheel

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:30 PM

There's still a light gem in Thief 2014, and just as in TDM, it can be disabled along with most of the UI.


Really? Where have you heard that the lightgem can be turned off in T4?
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#47 Kvorning

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:50 PM

There's a lot of official information, that hasn't been linked in here yet. I'll compile it in another topic for all of our sake, so we can get our qouestions cleared :P

#48 Springheel

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:11 PM

I've been following the discussions on TTLG pretty closely, but haven't heard anyone say anything specific about the lightgem being able to be toggled off (let alone the shroud).
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#49 Kvorning

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:55 PM

I thought I saw a reference to the light gem somewhere, but if that's the case I'm afraid I've lost it :) I'll try to find it, if I can.

I've made a more objective themed topic, and already compiled as much as I could without speculation: http://forums.thedar...ws/#entry313482

#50 _Atti_

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:25 AM

Anyway, they clearly mentioned that a whole bunch of the 'features' like the Focus can be disabled.
It's about options. You don't want them ? Don't use them !


Whereever i go i keep hearing this. No it is not about options. It is about design.

If a game is designed with these features in mind then all you'll be achieving by disabling stuff is you will 'pretend' that you're playing a better designed game.
I for one am tired of this.
Dx HR, Syrim. It is optional to turn off objective markers, but since they designed the game with them in mind there isnt sufficient alternative information for you to find them manually, so you will most likely stumble upon them and pretend you found them logically.

This decision also shows in level-design:

Dx air-vents are perfect example.
Entering original Dx airvents you could guess where they would lead by their directions.
Dx HR vents are like snakes in a bulding, and are just shortcuts between two points.

For me there is a certain difference in climbing through an (dx)airvent faintly knowing where it would lead, navigating it accordingly and getting to my goal,
and getting into a (dxHR)vent because there is a challenge ahead, wrigling around in it until popping up behind the challenge and pretending how smart i was choosing this path.

There is a huge difference between roleplaying and pretending to be in a role.
Especially since its a single player game , it is meant to force rules on the player, it is no fun if you have to make it all up.
Its like playing with dolls, or football against imaginery people. I dont need a new Thief game so i can pretend i am a thief. I could use ANY game to do that.I need a new Thief game so i can play AS a thief.

All these 'options' were called cheating in better times, and yes there were cheats that made the game harder but they didnt claim it was design-brilliance or a selling point.

Edited by _Atti_, 18 June 2013 - 04:27 AM.

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