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Thief 4 is trash.


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#51 Obsttorte

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:44 AM

Whereever i go i keep hearing this. No it is not about options. It is about design.

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#52 Springheel

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:06 AM

So now that it's confirmed that Hammers, Pagans and Keepers are not in the game, I wonder how common this sentiment will become:

This game has less tie to the series than the Dark Mod at this point


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#53 Obsttorte

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:17 PM

As they are aiming to appeal to a broad audience, I guess most of the people that will be actually buying the game when it's out may never have played the original thief games, and are therefore not able to judge how close the new one is to the others or to a real stealth game :mellow:
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#54 Glyph Seeker

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:38 PM

My favorite activity has been taken over by retarded fratboys and feminists.


Ah yes! I knew these two were secretly working together to destroy the holy world of Gaming!

Spare me.
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"No proposition Euclid wrote,
No formulae the text-books know,
Will turn the bullet from your coat,
Or ward the tulwar's
downward blow
Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—
The odds are on the cheaper man.
"


From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

#55 Diego

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:17 PM

Come on guys, they can't have a faction of religious fanatics, that's too similar to dishonored (joking here)

#56 Glyph Seeker

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:46 AM

The thing is - Dishonoured just sledgehammers all its world building at you. The Overseers are incredibly, utterly corrupt and they steal babies at birth and make them kill a puppy on their 5th birthday or whatever.

Whereas in Thief the idea of the Hammerites is that they are close minded but they may for the most part be normal human beings who believe what they are doing is right. The factions of Pagan / Keeper / Hammerite are pretty important to my idea of what Thief is.
"No proposition Euclid wrote,
No formulae the text-books know,
Will turn the bullet from your coat,
Or ward the tulwar's
downward blow
Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—
The odds are on the cheaper man.
"


From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

#57 stumpy

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 11:54 PM

maybe they should rename Garrett as Chuck, it would fit the game better.
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#58 Jonathan1247

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:22 AM

I wouldn't go as far to call the new Thief "trash" but it is straying from what we consider Thief to be.
So far, my gripes are the following.

- No Stephen Russell as Garrett. A small pet peeve, sure, but Russell defined a faceless character with his voice. I'll never forget that. Still, this one is a bit more forgivable, as this is not in the same continuity as the previous games.
- Simplistic Light Gem. The light gem seems to have only three levels, which is disappointing.
- The shroud. This shroud is very distracting and makes it tedious to view things in the side of your vision. It adds absolutely nothing to the realism and immersion factor.
- Garrett's hands. I for one thought this was a good idea in concept, but after seeing the demo, it was poorly executed. Garrett's hands are far too high up. It blocks most of your view, and to be frank, does nothing for the player. I like seeing Garrett interact with the environment, but can he please put his hands down?
- Unrealistic Guards. No stealth game has truly realistic guards. The game would become impossible. Though the game is only in it's Alpha stage, guards lack good peripheral vision as well as good hearing.
- The "Swoop." The dubiously named "swoop" is over powered. It makes no noise and moves the players quickly, so quickly a guard won't notice you ducking into the shadows. Ludicrous. It also needs to be renamed, should it stay, which it shouldn't.
- No lean feature. Sadly, the lean is gone, and has been replaced with a poor (sort of) cover mechanic.
- Over powered contextual third person takedowns. Not only only over powered, but overly flashy. I wouldn't mind them so much if you could perform while staying in the first person dynamic. Whenever you switch to third person it's jarring and screws with the immersion. Not to mention that it's forced on the player.
- Cumbersome UI and HUD. The HUD in the new Thief takes up most of the screen and looks very silly in a medieval steam punk setting. The UI alerts you of almost all the guard activity, instead you just judging how the guards act on your own.
- Strange art direction. Unlike the old games, everything in the new Thief seems desaturated and grey. Sure, the old Thief games were dark, but whenever you walked into a well illuminated area it was colorful. The shadows in the old games were inky blotches in The City that were intimidating, but also the safest place to be. From the gameplay and photos I'm seeing of the new Thief, it's far too bright. None of the shadows seem thick enough to hide a man, so it's just silly thinking that no one can see Garrett.
- Experience points. One could argue that Thief is an RPG, but one in which you level your gear, not your character. The new Thief seems to have a perk system like Dishonored. Unconfirmed, but still troubling.
- Rewards for violence. The old Thief games condemned slaughter. The new Thief, though not condoning violence, is more forgiving by awarding XP for headshots.
- The entirety of "Focus." I'm aware it can be turned off, but what's the point? Eidos Montreal has stated that Focus is part of the story and from what I understand, the entire game is designed around it's purpose and use.

So there is my long, long list of my problems with the new Thief. Maybe I'm too demanding, but hopefully since Thief is so early in development that some of these issues can be addressed.
If there is anything you want to add or anything you disagree with, just tell me.

Edited by Jonathan1247, 15 July 2013 - 09:13 PM.

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#59 Lux

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:38 AM

See the issue is, as they've described their reboot game and as they've built their reboot game, they've modeled current gen titles and theater. I've heard it stated that "the Three point hit system" fighting mechanic is just like the Sherlock Holmes movies.

What they should have done is, instead of calling it Thief and calling it a reboot... named it "The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes" or just "Sherlock Holmes" and I'd buy it, I'd like it for what it is. I'd compare it to Thief but I couldn't be displeased that it doesn't live up to the Thief name, because its not Thief, isn't named Thief, and there by doesn't disgrace the franchise. It would instead add another option to the stealth genre. It would be a new franchise and it would probably do well.

Hell, with the movies out and then the game released, they could run some dutch-door-action and really ramp up sales and interest, and its not like there aren't already plenty of great Sherlock Holmes stories they could exploit and plenty of Sherlock Holmes fans.

That would take some creativity on their part though and clearly they're fresh out of that.
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#60 Baal

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:45 AM

This may seem off topic.
I (tried to) replay Deus Ex: Human Revolution for the second time and I didn't get very far before losing interest again. On the highest difficulty level you're practically forced to play stealthy and the game is just not very good at it. Map design and AI patrols are not very interesting, there's no leaning (if you don't want to use the terrible third person cover system), and the takedown mechanic, while I didn't mind it at first, is simply not fun. The recharging of one energy unit (as well as regenerating health) just results in a lot of annoying waiting.

The point of this rant: Human Revolution is an ok game but I have doubts that its creators are capable of delivering a game that's nearly as great as the original Thief.

#61 stumpy

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:47 PM

the boss fight's in dx:hr seem to be tacked on and lacking in fun, just wondering if they've put boss fights in thief rebooted. as in orginal thief there really aren't any boss fights. even the hag at the end of thief 3 isn't really a boss fight as she can't be killed by normal means, although she can be got rid off for a short time due to the oil and not being able to get up after she has fallen over.

#62 Jonathan1247

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 02:03 PM

the boss fight's in dx:hr seem to be tacked on and lacking in fun, just wondering if they've put boss fights in thief rebooted. as in orginal thief there really aren't any boss fights. even the hag at the end of thief 3 isn't really a boss fight as she can't be killed by normal means, although she can be got rid off for a short time due to the oil and not being able to get up after she has fallen over.

The boss fights in Deus Ex: Human Revolution nearly killed the game for me. Still, the game is great and lives up to the Deus Ex standard with a great story that more than makes up for some of the terrible design choices. It was their first game, and a damn good one at that. I hope that with Deus Ex 4 they can show that the team has evolved.

Thief is a different story.

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#63 Baal

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:14 PM

Yes, the boss fights really do not fit into the game. They were made by a different studio as far as I know so you can't blame EM.
I'm probably to harsh on the game. The original is one of my favourites but I wonder what I would think about it if I played it today for the first time. It could have a special something that Human Revolution is missing. Or it's just me getting older.
But I do know for sure that the gold filter on everything sucks badly. :)

On the subject of boss "fights" I think they would actually fit better into a thief game because they're not about different playstyles. It wouldn't be a fight of course but something like the defeat of the trickster.

#64 Springheel

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 07:16 AM

It keeps getting worse....

"We won't be able to make everybody happy," says Daniel Windfeld Schmidt. He's the lead level designer on Eidos Montreal's Thief relaunch, and he's right. I recently played the first-person stealth game, and some people aren't going to be happy.

This Thief game has third-person climbing sections. It makes minor use of quick time events. It has "Focus Mode'," which gifts master thief Garrett with limited time-slowing combat abilities. It has context-sensitive controls that mean you can only jump when the game says you can jump.


http://www.ttlg.com/...l=1#post2201285
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#65 Baal

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 08:14 AM

Apparently Jumping/Mantling and Dashing share one button. How exactly does that work? And how stupid/lazy do they think gamers are that they have to simplify this to such a degree?

#66 Springheel

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:26 AM

It means you can only jump in areas that have been set up for jumping. You basically have a "movement button", and when you're in a spot where the computer thinks you should jump, that button will make you jump. When you're in a spot where the computer thinks you should mantle, then pushing it makes you mantle. It's basically the movement equivalent of "Press R for takedown"--just push the button and the computer will take care of everything for you.
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#67 Baal

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:43 AM

Thanks but that was more of a rhetorical question. What I meant was: how does that work as well as the common system that other games use (like Thief, Dishonored, TDM, Crysis etc.).
Jumping and mantling can be done with just one button but running forward (assuming the dash function replaces different movement speeds)? Can you control the direction of the jump? Or run off a ledge?
It just sounds horribly restricting.

#68 Vae

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 04:50 PM

Yes, it is horribly restricting...No, the player can't control the direction of a jump or run off a ledge, because it is an action script...I'll explain the nightmare...http://www.ttlg.com/...l=1#post2201110

1) There is no dedicated "Jump Button" for free-jumping.

2) Climbing, Jumping, and Swoop...are all controlled by the same Contextual Action control key.

3) The game decides for the player what action they will perform, based on the predetermined context, with an infallible action move.


Examples:

- If the player faces a wall that the game decides can be climbed, and they press the Contextual Action Key, the game will perform an action move of NuGarrett climbing up the wall to a location at the top.

- If the player comes to a ledge on the 2nd story of a building, and the game determines that there is a gap that can be jumped to another ledge, and they press the Contextual Action Key, the game will perform an action move of NuGarrett jumping from ledge to ledge, without error.

4) If the player is not in a contextual hotspot, and the Contextual Action Key is used, the game automatically determines that the player wants to Swoop, and does so with a hyper-sprint action move.


In NuThief, there is: No Free-Jumping...No Free-Climbing...No Free-Leaning...No Free-Falling...No Free-Roping



#69 stumpy

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 06:43 PM

well there are probably wires running from the generators to the lamps in the game because they couldn't work out why there wasn't any in the original game.

Edited by stumpy, 20 July 2013 - 06:44 PM.


#70 Springheel

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 08:28 PM

2) Climbing, Jumping, and Swoop...are all controlled by the same Contextual Action control key.


I don't even understand this decision. Is it due to limited buttons on console controllers or something? What other reason could there possibly be for something this limiting?
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#71 Vae

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 12:01 AM

It is because of two things...

The NuThief devs believe the classic control scheme is too complex, and have simplified it so that the modern gamer avoids becoming confused and frustrated.
+
They fail to understand the importance of player control, and its effect on freedom, exploration, and emergence.
=
A contextual solution that reduces complexity, at the expense of everything else.

Edited by Vae, 21 July 2013 - 12:05 AM.


#72 Sotha

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:00 AM

Well, it does make map design more easy as the mapper is in 100% control where the player can get to. See, that's part of the modern gaming expectation: player should not get stuck even if the player does something stupid like drops a moveable mission critical object in the bottomless pit. The commercial mapper must take everything into account.

In TDM the player can relatively easily get stuck in some geometry the mapper couldn't see problematic and betatesters didn't detect... Or they can get permanently stuck by dropping something important out of their reach. The expectations are different and the player has more responsibility. On the other hand, players could use vantage points the mapper never could have even dreamed of, like perching on top of a wooden flagpole. Tradeoff: more freedom, more responsibility.
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#73 Jonathan1247

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:09 AM

Brilliant. Contextual controls. This is one of the reasons why Splinter Cell: Conviction was so awful. I thought contextual leaning/peeking was as bad as it could get. But now there is no way to jump when I please? Even Dishonored realized the importance of a simple jump mechanic!

From what I understand, the new Thief only lets me do something when it tells me too. Eidos, I'm not a child. I don't need permission. If I want to fire a rope arrow there, I should be allowed. If I want to attempt an incredibly stupid jump across a huge gap, I should be allowed to try then face consequences if I do not succeed. If I want to lean somewhere other than from cover, I should be allowes too. If I want to knock a guard out, it should be me doing, not me pushing a button and then watching the game do it for me. Contextual design doesn't work!

I'm seriously doubting that swimming will be in the game, but that is the least of our issues.

There was no one other than me who wanted to stay optimistic, even after Russell was rudely dropped. I want Eidos to make a good game, but after recent news, this is bad. Really bad. They're still in the Alpha stage I believe, so there is room for plenty of change. Let's just hope that they listen.
Otherwise, the money I would have spent on Thief will go somewhere else.

Edited by Jonathan1247, 21 July 2013 - 02:11 AM.

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#74 New Horizon

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:29 AM

Sounds like they're making the game the same way the run their forums.
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#75 Springheel

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:37 AM

They're still in the Alpha stage I believe, so there is room for plenty of change.


It doesn't sound like they're planning on changing very much. It's highly likely they're getting a lot of pressure to get this out the door and not blow any more money on it.
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