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'Thief' & 'E3 2013' official information, articles & interviews

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#51 Kvorning

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 06:25 PM

Regarding our earlier conversation, I just stumpled across this: http://forums.eidosg...0&postcount=280

Edited by Kvorning, 18 June 2013 - 06:41 PM.


#52 demagogue

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:11 PM

Re: The conversation a few posts back, yes, IMO the best reviews for creative works are the personal opinions of people whose personality is like yours. I think about it like the staff-picks at the video shop (back when those still existed)... If you know a guy that has a similar personality as you, then you know you're usually going to like their picks, even if it wouldn't be ranked as high on objective standards (which are suspect anyway... The things that are most "objective", like sales or focus group responses, don't always translate to you liking it.)
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#53 Springheel

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:11 PM

Regarding our earlier conversation, I just stumpled across this


Well, it's no secret that the EM forum mods disagree with many other people's opinions about the gameplay.
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#54 Kvorning

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:48 PM

Well if it's facts vs opinion, then it's already clear which wins, No matter what side they are on. :/

Edited by Kvorning, 18 June 2013 - 09:05 PM.


#55 Goldwell

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:51 PM

Although I still remain confused on the new Thief due to hearing awesome/terrible things about it. This video was posted on Reddit called RIP Thief.. I got a kick out of it, so I thought I would share it :D


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#56 Kvorning

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:45 PM

The music really sets the mood for a bottle of red, wrapped in a polar bear pelt by the fireplace, with some video editing software ;)

Anyway found another couple of articles, worth a read, adding up top and here:

http://www.gameinfor...ling.aspx<br />http://www.gamesrada...ing-candy-baby/

#57 Springheel

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:01 PM

Well if it's facts vs opinion, then it's already clear which wins, No matter what side they are on. :/


Yes, but how do you identify facts vs opinion?
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#58 Kvorning

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 11:11 PM

Well for all of us on the sidelines, without any other insight than the information we're being fed from other fans, we really have only the 'facts' we get from the videos.

When it comes to articles, as you say, it depends on who you trust. I trust the guy who gives a description of events without adding too many "good" or "bad" quality statements to the mix.

On a side note, I'd in most cases believe what the developer is saying is closest to facts. When they don't present accurate facts, they get known as "Activision" or "Ubisoft" to mention the two we all know. I hope Eidos doesn't end up in that category, as resourceful developers outside 'EA jurisdiction', are kinda limited.

#59 jay pettitt

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 03:08 AM

So developers are a trustworthy source of facts, except for when they're not.

~~edit~~
actually, sod this. The only thing we've got that's close to a source of facts is science, which only achieves its status as a source of reliable knowledge through painstaking baby-steps, obsessively testing the ground each time and constant iteration. Which is hard work and takes time, and even then it gets complicated.

The rest of the time (and possibly even then) we're all befuddled by cognitive and other biases, conflicting interests and god knows what else. You, me, fans, developers, journalists alike.

Do I trust a selection of fans that Eidos hand selected and paid to go on an all expenses paid jolly? Maybe.
Do I trust the developers who need millions of people to buy their product? As far as it goes.
Do I trust RPS, Giant Bomb & Sneaky Bastards, all of whom have fostered a reputation for being on the ball and writing frank, independent views? With caveats.

Result: As far as I can tell Theif [4] gets a mixed reaction at E3. Take that how you will.

Should you trust me? No.

Edited by jay pettitt, 19 June 2013 - 03:47 AM.

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#60 skacky

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:36 AM

A little obvious thing: you cannot imagine how easy it is to lie to your customers when you are a developer.
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#61 Springheel

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:41 AM

I would say the developers are probably the LEAST trustworthy people, as they have the clearest motives for making their games sound better than they actually are.

And what Jay said.
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#62 Kvorning

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 10:24 AM

Indeed, the idealistic perception of facts is about as complex as impossible as objectivity.

So again, it all comes down to trust and what we already know. That's also why we have to approach new material with a sense of logic and reason, over presumption.

I don't assume Eidos or anyone else tells the absolute truth and nothing else, but as they are the guys making the game, not only do they see the full picture, they are also deeply intimate with every little detail in it. That means they can use their own insights to make their own mix of money and a high quality game.

I really doubt there's any Activision fans in here, but as for the COD series (gameplay aside), it's obvious that they have had very little interest in the balance towards quality, for many years.

In the end, we all get to see how much Eidos 'lies', when we get our hands on the actual product, and then base our future trust with them, through our satisfaction. :)

Edit: A friend found another article I added to the top. Kinda long (1½ coffee) but very detailed: http://metro.co.uk/2...d-down-3847108/

Edited by Kvorning, 19 June 2013 - 11:18 AM.


#63 i30817

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:54 AM



Yeah. They couldn't even not copy the tagline

#64 jay pettitt

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:38 AM

Sneaky Bastards have finally published a write up of their T4/E3 experience.

"We leave the room and head back into the fray, feeling ill."


We can have a long chat about whether scripted sequences like the burning bridge might be behind Eidos Montreal ditching Stephen Russell, whether they're expensive on developer resources generally and whether those are smart decisions - but I sorta don't care otherwise about them punctuating the game here and there, I'm okay with departures from the original formula if (and it is an if, see the next paragraph) it's still recognisable as Thief elsewhere.

What does interest me, and what Sneaky Bastards get to which other write ups haven't so far is the degree of systems simulation and the scope for exploration. And in both cases they fail T4. Rather than infiltrating a mansion that's a cohesive system you progress from one distinct challenge/area to the next, ala Splinter Cell, and the scope for exploration is similarly limited/non-existent. 15 years later, we've gone backwards.

...this is where we want your freedom. A lot of opportunities. A lot of ways to play. Aggressive. Non-lethally. It’s up to you…

Yet this spoke to our major concern with the demo – one far greater than the insipid, dated nature of the burning bridge sequence. The “ingredients” that featured within the level did not feel general-purpose and consistent. They were not systems; they were hand-placed, hard-coded points of interest.


My take is, though they're clearly trying hard to be open minded and have provided the most candid insights into Eidos M's development rationale so far, the sneaky crew have delivered the most damning verdict on T4 yet.

Edited by jay pettitt, 20 June 2013 - 07:50 AM.

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#65 Springheel

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:22 AM

Yes, they seemed quite negative.

Though this Thief is a new, different game, Roy is adamant that he and the development team want to respect fans of the series. We can’t fathom a harder slap in the face.


The more negative responses that come out from stealth-fan reviewers, the more suspect EM's reviewers and their glowing reports seem.... <_<

High(low) points:

* rope arrows can only be used in limited places for FPS reasons, because otherwise it would be necessary "to block your view".

* Roy's opinion of focus: "Personally, I really like the Focus feature. Personally, I don’t think that you cheat by using it. It’s really a part of the answer to why Garrett is the master"

* "the Shroud was one of the chief elements preventing us from ever feeling immersed in the world."

* Roy's likes the shroud and doesn't want to get rid of it: "they don’t have to check the gem. Just having that flash, they understand ‘Okay, the situation has changed’. So now, they forget the rest, and when there is that small tick, they understand, ‘Okay, now I should swoop, and come back.’"
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#66 Melan

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:53 AM

It is pretty bad when someone has to defend a 'feature' like the Shroud with outright misinformation (as seen here, or when the same guy tried to claim the light gem in older games was a binary either-or switch).
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#67 Loa4ever

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:14 AM

Other thing that makes me not being buying this peace of crap is the focus... this actually makes you cheat the game all the time. I don't buy the excuse is a element part of the story. IF Guarret is a MASTER Theif then I ask to developers, publisher... what is a MASTER thief? I play TDM and I don't see the thief using nothing but only his instruments to get in a situation without being detected, and I don't have skill points to spend to a skill... this is actually a brilliant idea, I feel I am a master thief. Oh but wait... COD... that's right because this game sells like billions if not more, publishers and companies will follow the same road, in process loosing their target audience. Also will lose their style of game in process telling lies to fans/gamers about their product to sell more.
If I want to spend skill points in some game I will play rpg's. Ah and I can guess we will be very limited to go where we like to infiltrate in a mission. because you know... you as a gamer are a retard this is what they thing about you, in other words you don't know how to play a game you need their help to tell you where to go. Where were the time a game actually challenge you, made you think to find a solution to a problem?
I hope this game is loved by those who are interest and I wish the best, but in same time I think people should spot and thing about what's going in game industry. If you don't buy anything you see in a company you can guess they will think twice, or at least you hope they think twice.

#68 Kvorning

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:09 PM

I like how "sneaky bastards" quote pieces from the interview, and then highlight a select line, that out of context makes Stéphane Roy to be the devil.

If you read the whole thing, you can see the man is speaking out of best intentions, but If you glance over the highlights, he becomes Michael Bay.

They appear to be fans of "gotcha!-journalism".

#69 Springheel

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:15 PM

Do you work for EM, Kvorning? You seem to have a negative comment about any article that is harsh about the game. :)

Taking small excerpts from interviews and posting them in larger text throughout the article (there are only 3 in this one) is standard practice, isn't it?
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#70 skacky

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:23 PM

And besides, anything Roy says shows how clueless he is about the franchise and his own game, anyway.

#71 Springheel

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:27 PM

I'm completely confused now. Apparently Thief is going to be released on current gen platforms. That makes sense financially. But how on earth can they do that if the game/missions were designed for "next gen" consoles? Presumably they were already using all the computing power available...doesn't this mean they're going to have to start some serious cutting back? How is this not bad news for the game itself?

edit: unless, of course, all that "next gen" stuff was crap, and they were designed for current gen tech all along.
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#72 Goldwell

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:10 PM

I'm completely confused now. Apparently Thief is going to be released on current gen platforms. That makes sense financially. But how on earth can they do that if the game/missions were designed for "next gen" consoles? Presumably they were already using all the computing power available...doesn't this mean they're going to have to start some serious cutting back? How is this not bad news for the game itself?

edit: unless, of course, all that "next gen" stuff was crap, and they were designed for current gen tech all along.


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#73 Kvorning

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:27 PM

Haha no got nothing to do with EM, but as a long time Thief fan, I'm going for 'benefit of the doubt', to a developer who's got a strong reputation already. Eidos has taken good care of Thief in the past, and I doubt the new studio gonna spend 4 years of development, just to loose a big fan base in exchange for a very slow profit.

Usually when it comes to text extracts, the quote is supposed to be one that sums up the essence of the last section. Sum up, not distort :)

I consider an article that is filled with needless glee just as bad as one filled with needless hate. A good accurate description will make the reader react either way on their own.

I became a big fan of Gearbox after getting Borderlands 2, spent about 350 hours in that game, so I was extremely disappointed to see their involvement in 'Aliens - Colonial Mariens', was pretty futile. The reason I bring that up, is because that was also a project, which was delayed for a long time, and then came out as a complete failure. Reviews were very mixed there as well.

Edit: You do have a fair point though. I can also be 'too openly optimistic' about what's to come, so gonna go ahead and add the article along with the 'other' one to the list.

Edited by Kvorning, 20 June 2013 - 04:48 PM.


#74 jay pettitt

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:57 PM

They're calling out what they think are the salient points. They provide the audio of the interview unabridged. It's hardly an effort to mislead.

#75 Goldwell

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:28 PM

I just realized the meaning behind a line from the E3 trailer...

It sets me free in the night.


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