Jump to content


Photo

'Thief' & 'E3 2013' official information, articles & interviews

thief 2014 e3 information feedback videos articles interviews 2013

  • Please log in to reply
112 replies to this topic

#101 Lux

Lux

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1575 posts

Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:09 AM

The thing about guards waking each other up in the SC series is that even if you just knocked him out, AI goes over to him, crouches and the guy immediately gets up. I could understand that if he'd been out for a bit already but it felt broken when you jUSt knocked a guy out and a guard comes in and immediately wakes him back up. No groggy, no head rubbing, just..."I'm awake now cause AI kneeled next to me" instantly. It definitely was a good mechanic but it wasn't thought out or implemented very well IMO.

Btw, Chaos Theory is still the best SC game to date. (IMO of course).

Edited by Lux, 28 June 2013 - 04:09 AM.


#102 Springheel

Springheel

    Creative Director (retired)

  • Admin
  • 37449 posts

Posted 28 June 2013 - 07:50 AM

You could respawn him with an inferior weapon.
A guard has a longsword. If the player KOs him and someone wakes him up, he pulls a dagger from his boot or something.


Ok fine. Then what? He just goes back to his patrol route like nothing happened? What if there's no path back there, because the player dumped him over a ledge?

There are other issues too: what if the player drags the KOd AI under a bed or a chair. Then when he is woken up, he is out of valid AAS area. So we need the waking guard somehow drag the KOd AI back to AAS region.


That sounds rather complicated to me.

Even if you can sort out all these issues, you're still left with the ultimate problem--if KOing guards is less effective than killing them, the player will just be encouraged to kill them. KO the guard, put him in the dark, and then put an arrow in his head. You can even take the arrow back.

The only way to prevent it would be to apply No Kill objectives, which just limits player choice.

Ultimately, you wind up doing a lot of work for something that doesn't really result in an overall improvement to gameplay.
TDM Missions:   A Score to Settle   *   A Reputation to Uphold   *   A New Job   *    A Matter of Hours
 
Video Series:   Springheel's Modules   *   Speedbuild Challenge   *   New Mappers Workshop  *   Building Traps

#103 grayman

grayman

    Master Builder, Coder

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12727 posts

Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:15 AM

And here's where my aforementioned donkey and ambulance cart make an appearance.

The KO'ed guard is hauled into the cart by his friends and sent offstage for a short while. Afterward, he appears back on patrol, all hale and hearty, new weapon in hand and a big morphine-induced grin on his face.
  • Springheel likes this

#104 ERH+

ERH+

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 746 posts

Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:18 AM

Other way is to make "drag body on shoulder" animation for AI (and for player in a mirror as well). We have already 'flee points' , and this will be '2nd person hospital bed point'. AI will place unconscious one in bed and then leave him. Bad things: body on shoulder will sink or collide on every doorframe, and player will just leave bodies in open to set trap for AI as they are more vulnerable on new route.

Maybe instead make "paramedic whistle". If guard don't have it, he will run for help like fleeing civilian (and flee point will be in paramedic room). If guard have "paramedic whistle" we will summon medic and only this specialized AI will take care of unconscious (he could slowly drag body to position inside AAS region, replace weapon, apply potions).

You already want to make AI randomly chop things on kitchen table, work with hammer as blacksmith; some decision chain will be more in place in case on dead/ KO persons.

Edited by ERH+, 28 June 2013 - 08:20 AM.

S2wtMNl.gif


#105 Springheel

Springheel

    Creative Director (retired)

  • Admin
  • 37449 posts

Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:19 AM

And here's where my aforementioned donkey and ambulance cart make an appearance


"Bring out your unconscious! ...Bring out your unconscious! "
  • AluminumHaste, grayman and ERH+ like this
TDM Missions:   A Score to Settle   *   A Reputation to Uphold   *   A New Job   *    A Matter of Hours
 
Video Series:   Springheel's Modules   *   Speedbuild Challenge   *   New Mappers Workshop  *   Building Traps

#106 Springheel

Springheel

    Creative Director (retired)

  • Admin
  • 37449 posts

Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:21 AM

You already want to make AI randomly chop things on kitchen table, work with hammer as blacksmith


These things don't require any coding, special pathfinding, or decision-making. Nor do they have any impact on gameplay.
TDM Missions:   A Score to Settle   *   A Reputation to Uphold   *   A New Job   *    A Matter of Hours
 
Video Series:   Springheel's Modules   *   Speedbuild Challenge   *   New Mappers Workshop  *   Building Traps

#107 stumpy

stumpy

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1869 posts

Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:42 AM

maybe the weapons in t4 do what they did in deus ex, which was to de-spawn if a guard was knocked out, then re-spawn when they're woken up. they already have the AI and animations for this from deus ex HR, and the engine is pratically the same.

in TDM weapons fall from the guards hands and clatter on the ground like they would in real life, a knocked out guard in real life would go to hospital, they did have them in medieval times, for a course of leeches to remove the bad waters from their system before being returned to work. I cant really see knocked out guards getting back to work after being woken up, they more than likly be sent home, because most would be suffering from double vision and being woozy and feeling sick for hours afterwards. (thief is supposed to be a simulation of real life rather than being a game with game restrictions)

#108 grayman

grayman

    Master Builder, Coder

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12727 posts

Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:40 AM

"Bring out your unconscious! ...Bring out your unconscious! "


"Hey! Wait a minute! He's not unconscious!"

#109 Lux

Lux

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1575 posts

Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:30 AM

Waking AI for a shrubbery?!

#110 stumpy

stumpy

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1869 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:44 AM

there's a review of thief 4 in pcgamer august 2013 issue, just done a quick skim through and it says there's a olde school mode where everything can be turned off, but it don't turn off the linear feel or the quick timed button mashing mode.

#111 Melan

Melan

    Contest Winner, Wordsmith

  • Campaign Dev
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4447 posts

Posted 29 June 2013 - 10:31 AM

If only you could just turn off bad design...
  • Springheel, skacky, Loa4ever and 1 other like this
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#112 Kvorning

Kvorning

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 375 posts

Posted 05 August 2013 - 02:00 PM



Hey, a pretty long video where they take a look inside Eidos Montreal, watching now, hope there's something interesting ;)

#113 Mr M

Mr M

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 51 posts

Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:33 PM

A mistake is made here, a black-jacked guard is not knocked out. He is killed - as he never wakes up. The only resulting difference between an arrow & the black jack is observable blood - that's it.

An awakened guard ( by another guard) could be made to be sent away ( whatever that means) - or just sits there to be a visual guard only - to bark if he sees an intruder... his feet are to wobbly to stand for the rest of the game. Meanwhile another guard comes ( spawned within a short amount of time) to take his place as if a call went out to the barracks to wake one of those slackers to be a needed replacement.

So a event would be,
I black jack a guard, he goes down, and if is found, is awakened with smelling salts by another guard - black jack guard is now designated to be a "sitting guard" only - right where he is - no need to get up ( or sit up?). The guard who found the knocked out guard goes on an warning alert ( as current) but also (somehow*) demands another guard to take up the patrol of the knocked out one . The new guard "arrives" ( spawn) on alert. ( * I believe this will be shot down, so no need to elaborate here)

If the body is never found, no prob. he is unconscious ( I know this because he could be woken up), again, - currently, the BJ does kill him.

Ok, so I knock out a guard, drag him somewhere put an arrow in him ( I am now a murderer, bty). If found, an alert, and replacement guard is called for. ( Really should not be able to remove arrows, that is extremely hard to go against/pull an arrowhead - takes a bit of time and effort and likely, noise) - so shooting into a guard ( or other objects) would decrease your arrows - so you may not splurge to murder) By this arrow, I have have removed a potential sitting barker guard with a kill, but a replacement guard does come after a time.


I am the first to admit I do not know what is all involved or programming practicality for what I stated. I just wanted to give a view.
I am never here to criticize the fantastic amount, and quality of work that has gone into TDM, I followed it all from the beginning, years ago - can never thank you guys enough...

Edited by Mr M, 05 December 2013 - 01:35 PM.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: thief, 2014, e3, information, feedback, videos, articles, interviews, 2013

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users