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TDM should steal this idea from Dishonored....


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#26 SirGen

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:09 PM

@New Horizon Yeah, although I really like the depth that stamina bars can add to a game, I agree that adding one to TDM could drastically change things.

My main focus of my first point, was that I would like to see hanging from ledges added to TDM. Stamina bars are not necessary for this, it just occurred to me that not even a master thief could hold onto a ledge indefinitely. I don't think that this would change TDM's gameplay too much.

Edited by SirGen, 12 September 2013 - 09:11 PM.

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#27 AluminumHaste

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:35 PM

I would politely like to add, with no offense meant in any way; fuck stamina.
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#28 SirGen

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:46 PM

@AluminumHaste Although I feel differently, that gave me a good chuckle :laugh:
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#29 SirGen

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:53 PM

I'm regretting mentioning a stamina bar because hanging from ledges was my main focus. Perhaps a "hanging bar" could be used much like a breath bar.

Edited by SirGen, 12 September 2013 - 09:53 PM.

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#30 Springheel

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:55 PM

Hanging from ledges also has a huge potential to break maps, as it would allow players to get places mappers wouldn't expect them to.
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#31 SirGen

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:11 PM

Perhaps the player should only be able to hang from a ledge that they can already mantle, without the ability to move sideways. This would stop them from accessing areas that the mappers wouldn't expect. It could be looked at as a "pause" in the current mantling system. You press jump just the same as you do now. Your character grabs the ledge just as they do now, but instead of your character automatically pulling themselves up, they hold their position on the ledge until you press forward. Mantling would be exactly the same as it is now if you never stop pressing forward during the mantling process.

Edited by SirGen, 12 September 2013 - 10:27 PM.

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#32 stumpy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:12 PM

isn't sound in game at it's quietest -60 or is that just the volume for ambient sounds in game for the player. So '0' would be quite loud.

#33 Lux

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 05:50 AM

Obsttorte, not too long ago, re-released Old Habits II, a mission in which you could hang from a ledge and shimmy around. Not sure how he did it, maybe with a ledge under it to stand on? But there ya go, it is possible.
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#34 Obsttorte

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:41 AM

I've used a brush with a ladder texture on it :)
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#35 New Horizon

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:43 AM

@New Horizon Yeah, although I really like the depth that stamina bars can add to a game, I agree that adding one to TDM could drastically change things.

My main focus of my first point, was that I would like to see hanging from ledges added to TDM. Stamina bars are not necessary for this, it just occurred to me that not even a master thief could hold onto a ledge indefinitely. I don't think that this would change TDM's gameplay too much.


I actually meant that hanging on ledges would change the gameplay. Care must be taken with anything 'added' from this point onward, there are 50+ existing maps that we have to consider and we can't keep asking FM authors to go back and fix old missions every time we push out an update.
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#36 Sotha

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:59 AM

I actually meant that hanging on ledges would change the gameplay. Care must be taken with anything 'added' from this point onward, there are 50+ existing maps that we have to consider and we can't keep asking FM authors to go back and fix old missions every time we push out an update.


This. The core of TDM is actually pretty polished now. Thus far the team has done a magnificent job in incorporating additional features. But at this point in development, we must remember that it should be mostly about polishing the stuff we already have. The team must now protect the Core's beauty from nasty feature creep.

Hasty inclusion of something that breaks stuff would be very bad for the success of the mod. If someone wants to do something extra special (hitman-style gameplay, poisons, darkbombs, bunny-arrows, flintlock pistols, Crossbow-Lazors, etc...), they *CAN* still do it. Just include it as a map script. There is no need to add everything to the Core.

With TDM, everything is possible! :wub: (As long as the Core experience is not broken.)
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#37 SirGen

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 07:06 AM

Well I'm very happy with how TDM plays as it is right now, so I'm not too bothered that ledge hanging won't be added. I just thought it would be a fun addition, without realizing all the problems it could cause.

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#38 Maude Zuck

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 10:15 AM

I like the 4 original propositions.

The swimming thing sounds cool as long as it isn't over done. I should still be able to wade slowly. I make a little mini-game out of slow-wading and just managing a horizon that lets me see clearly what lies beneath; and I like it! But for full-on swimming, I think the "pulse" motion would be cool.

New "particle" effects? The more the better. Bugs and birds and swarms of things. Excellent.

More sounds? More better too as well.

The SpecialCrouch... meh. I already do that. 'Tis left to my imagination and so I imagine it is so. To actually go to the trouble of implementing it and accomodating the cascading effects? Nah...

I don't really love the keyhole idea either. It is unrealistic (though not as much in this universe, to be fair, as it is in most of the games that have keyhole peeking already!). It is a major change too... but, then again, I do agree that since the guards are apparently going to be more aware of things they didn't usedta it becomes necessary.

More battle-skills for the guards? Sure. I still can't really work the fighting system anyway, so I need more reason to not get caught.

Fuck Stamina? Please don't add your Fuck Stamina all over the place. ;)

#39 Obsttorte

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 02:17 PM

I'm not quite sure it is neccessary to enhance the fighting capabilities of ai. I mean, the whole idea behind a stealth game is to avoid fighting. And if a mapper wants to make fights more difficult, he or she can just increase the ai's health or weapon damage.

Regarding special crouch. If it is just about crouching below a table, this can be done with some tricks. Basically one just has to make sure that there is enough space below the table (48 doom units if I'm right).

Regarding particle effects: It's basically the same, mappers can create them theirselvs. But if there is the possibility to add some more professional looking ones, then this is obviously great.
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#40 Lux

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 05:30 PM

Crouching below tables/in vents has been done in some FMs and is also addressed in the wikis' as Obsttorte noted.

#41 rich_is_bored

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:09 PM

The role of a good coder shouldn't be relegated to bug fixing when they have so much more they can do creatively. We should be a bit more receptive to new ideas and welcoming towards people that experiment with the code. Level editing should not be the only playground nor should the number of missions be the only measure of growth. I hope given the right feature you'd be willing to add a clipping brush or two to your maps.

#42 New Horizon

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 07:47 PM

The role of a good coder shouldn't be relegated to bug fixing when they have so much more they can do creatively. We should be a bit more receptive to new ideas and welcoming towards people that experiment with the code. Level editing should not be the only playground nor should the number of missions be the only measure of growth. I hope given the right feature you'd be willing to add a clipping brush or two to your maps.


There is a time and place for that, but every project comes to a point where bug fixing / existing systems enhancement is probably the most important thing that can be done. TDM is at such a stage right now. I can certainly sympathize with the desire to do something creative, but you can't keep adding to a project indefinitely...just like you can't keep adding onto a house forever.

If a feature is awesome though and warrants going back to fix 50+ missions, I'm sure the team would consider it but at the moment bug fixing and enhancing current systems is the best thing that could happen to TDM. Grayman has pulled out all the stops in whipping the AI systems into shape, amongst other things. There is so much room for improvement within the foundation of the mod that it would be a shame to shift focus onto new systems.
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#43 lowenz

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:30 AM

Anyone have any others?

Yep.

Ability to look through the keyhole!

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#44 stumpy

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 11:37 PM

how about the tripwire traps, but not for the player, but for the map maker as pressure plates don't work plus they are visible for the player to avoid or disarm to collect extra arrows.

you could have the tripwire attached to a steam punk device, that sends a signal via antenna to a bow attached to another steam punk device that fires a maximum of 5 arrows at the player that triggered the trap. To disarm the trap you pour sand into the water container hole at the top of the device connected to the tripwire.

so to disarm you would use a bag of sand on the device attached to the tripwire. Bags of sand brought from the shop at game start. and on disarming trap the trigger link from the tripwire device to the projective device would be deleted, or you could just shoot the tripwire from a distance to trigger the device but you would lose the arrows from the projectile device. Maybe you could have a alarm attached to the tripwire device that alerts the guards to an intruder when activated, and this link also removed when device disarmed.

They wouldn't be considered to be a modern invention as they've been used through out history since the dawn of time as primitive traps to catch wild animals for food by hunters. A loop of catgut (catgut is sheep intestines turned into a string) attached to a wooden stake to catch an animal by the legs is still a tripwire trap.

#45 Sotha

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:26 AM

Actually there are remains of a tripwire system in the TDM defs. I think it was the mine's def file.

I dunno anything about it, but I bumped into it while playing with mines. It looked like TDM team was seriously considering tripwires in conjunction with the traps at least at some point. It may be the answer to tve question why the mines have so small step-on radius rather than being proximity based.

Maybe it just was not implementable at the time? Nowadays, with the source out, anything should be possible, if you got someone to work on it.
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#46 Springheel

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:09 AM

I can think of a bunch of interesting things coders could do that wouldn't break existing maps.

1. Sound masking (already mentioned)
2. Coordinated searching among AI
3. High/low security areas
4. Get facial animations working
5. Expanded RIT system
6. improve AI reaction to arrows
7. Expanded alarm system
8. Improve trap/damage system


That's just off the top of my head.
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#47 Ladro

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:06 PM

I can think of a bunch of interesting things coders could do that wouldn't break existing maps.

1. Sound masking (already mentioned)
2. Coordinated searching among AI
3. High/low security areas
4. Get facial animations working
5. Expanded RIT system
6. improve AI reaction to arrows
7. Expanded alarm system
8. Improve trap/damage system


That's just off the top of my head.


And swimming "à la Dishonored"?

#48 simplen00b

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:54 PM

I remember especially liking how you could dump bodies anywhere, no matter how cramped the space.

They didn't always go where you'd hope they'd go, mind. :smile:
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#49 rich_is_bored

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 04:34 PM

I acknowledge the state TDM is currently in and the commitment to focusing on bug fixes for the sake of a 2.0 standalone release. I'm talking about a future beyond that point. I figured the open source nature of TDM would make it a living project with a moving goal post. Otherwise all we've really done here is trade away the constraints of one game engine for a set of new ones imposed by legacy maps.

The number of missions is only going to grow and it seems it's already a problem for even the simplest of additions. Perhaps there is a way to bundle maps with the version of the mod they were designed for? Maybe the engine can load up a separate game library? I don't have the expertise to say if either are viable long term solutions. But without one I believe a backwards incompatible TDM is inevitable. It will be history repeating itself.

#50 SirGen

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:13 PM

This is a minor issue, and I'm a little embarrassed that it still affects me. Whenever I open a chest the sound effect causes me to hurry and check the nearest door to see who's coming through it :blush: I have probably played around 50-60 hours (maybe more) of TDM, but I still check almost every time.

It would be nice if chests opening and closing could have different sound effects than doors have.

Edited by SirGen, 16 September 2013 - 08:14 PM.

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