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TDM should steal this idea from Dishonored....


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#51 grayman

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:38 PM

This is a minor issue, and I'm a little embarrassed that it still affects me. Whenever I open a chest the sound effect causes me to hurry and check the nearest door to see who's coming through it :blush: I have probably played around 50-60 hours (maybe more) of TDM, but I still check almost every time.

It would be nice if chests opening and closing could have different sound effects than doors have.


I still react the same way too. I make every effort in my maps to replace the default door sounds on the lid. If we could agree on appropriate sounds, we could change the prefabs. This won't help existing maps that use today's default sounds, though.
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#52 Sotha

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:25 PM

Here is theoretical fix which I dunno if it works in practice.

Make random sound sets for doors and chests. This means the there is a door/container opening sound that is matched with suitable closing sound.

Create a random_soundset spawnarg for doors and containers.
The entities that have this spawnarg set to 1, will -upon map start- randomize a soundset for itself. If the doors default to 1, all the doors should have a different sound without the mapper manually twiddling with the opening and closing sound, which is a boring job and many don't do it (hence the problem you describe).

In principle you could do the same for AI vocal sets: use any random male non-builder vocal set for this character. The game would randomize on map start what vocals the AI uses.
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#53 SirGen

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:41 AM

Another minor issue I have is how long enemies chamber their attacks when wielding daggers. I haven't studied enough to know if the actual swinging animation is slower than the swords, but it definitely holds in the chambering position for too long; making it too easy to block. At first the timing threw me off, but now it is too easy. It seems that the short sword is slower than the long sword as well. Again The actual swing may be just as fast but the chambering seems to pause longer. It seems that the smaller, lighter weapons should be faster rather than slower, but I think it would also work just fine if they all swung at the same speed.

Edited by SirGen, 17 September 2013 - 12:41 AM.

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#54 New Horizon

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:52 AM

Could just change the pitch of the door sound with some audio software to make it a tad higher so it's not exactly the same.
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#55 Springheel

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 11:03 AM

we could change the prefabs


I think I did this already for 2.0.

Make random sound sets for doors


Interesting idea.
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#56 jaxa

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:47 PM

And swimming "à la Dishonored"?


http://bugs.thedarkm...iew.php?id=3550

#57 STiFU

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:35 PM

BTW: peeping through keyholes was a great feature, and very thiefy!

Although I like that feature myself, I think it would make the sideway leaning hearing through doors obsolete. And I think that feels really thiefy, too. :)

#58 chakkman

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 04:58 PM

How about a new gadget, something like Splinter Cell's optic cable: http://splintercell....iki/Optic_Cable from the inventor guild. :) Not sure if that's possible anyway though.

#59 SirGen

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:46 AM

Although I like that feature myself, I think it would make the sideway leaning hearing through doors obsolete. And I think that feels really thiefy, too. :)

I wasn't aware of this feature. I don't remember it in the training mission. It is very cool! I like it more than the keyhole peeping because it seems more realistic.

Edited by SirGen, 18 September 2013 - 01:46 AM.

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#60 New Horizon

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 06:19 AM

I wasn't aware of this feature. I don't remember it in the training mission. It is very cool! I like it more than the keyhole peeping because it seems more realistic.


You could lean into doors to listen in the original Thief games too.
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#61 SirGen

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 06:26 PM

You could lean into doors to listen in the original Thief games too.

My first play through of Thief 1, I didn't know that flash bombs hurt the undead. I also didn't know that black jack attacks damaged bots in Thief 2. These two things made huge differences the next times that I played through these great games. I wonder what else I don't know <_<

Edited by SirGen, 18 September 2013 - 06:28 PM.

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#62 Obsttorte

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:04 AM

You could buy equipment for a mission from the gold gathered in the previous one :P
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#63 Tr00pertj

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:30 AM

Instead of having an extreme crouching we may consider adding the possibility for the player to lay on the ground, what would serve a similar purpose.

What would be more important and was used in the Splinter Cell games (I don't layed Dishonored), was that the ambient noise had an effect of how well you can be heard. Currently mappers can use a spawnarg on the info_location entities to determine how loud is in there. If the player makes a sound in that area, its loudness is reduced by that value. This is a start, but not very satisfying. When the sound propagates from the player to the ai, the method should gather all those volume reduction values, and reduce the loudness by the highest value.

Spoiler

Laying on the ground is referred to as prone and is used in a lot of war games. Prone is something that has to be very carefully implemented in the engine. For instance if one can prone (lay down) does a tree trunk block the AI view? does a shrub block the AI View? From the prone position does the jump key make the player stand up or jump? I can see a deul stage key implemented so the first press crouches, The second prone or lay down, The third press crouches and the fourth back to standing.

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#64 Ladro

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:39 AM

You could buy equipment for a mission from the gold gathered in the previous one :P


BTW: IMHO a live-shop *into* the mission (and not in the beginning when you have no idea of what you'll need) it's a great idea for the mod.

I remember a great mission for Thief2 by Sterlino named "The Horn of Canzo" with this kind of live-shop in game (a scripted and very simple one, but it's works). So if you have to buy something that it's really important for the mission, you have to find gold before.

Edited by Ladro, 19 September 2013 - 06:39 AM.


#65 chakkman

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:39 AM

My first play through of Thief 1, I didn't know that flash bombs hurt the undead. I also didn't know that black jack attacks damaged bots in Thief 2. These two things made huge differences the next times that I played through these great games. I wonder what else I don't know <_<

I'm playing through Thief Gold atm (totally awesome). Took a long time for me to figure out that the burricks react very sensitive on blackjack knocks from behind... :blush:

#66 Tr00pertj

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:34 AM

I'm playing through Thief Gold atm (totally awesome). Took a long time for me to figure out that the burricks react very sensitive on blackjack knocks from behind... :blush:

They can just be killed with an arrow or two.

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#67 chakkman

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:36 AM

Alright. Strange animals. :)

#68 Tr00pertj

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:51 AM

Any animal can be seen as strange but AI animals are predictable.

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#69 TheUnbeholden

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:07 AM

Extreme crouching: I love the way that you can crouch, but when you press up against a smaller space, like the space under a table, you crouch down even further to fit under it, allowing you to hide in much smaller spaces than TDM. I suspect that would be a lot harder to code, and might even cause problems in existing maps, but it certainly impressed me as an idea worth considering.

Anyone have any others?



This is exactly what I wanted out TDM for awhile. I personally preferring to hide out of sight rather than in shadow. But I assumed that the reason it wasn't implemented was of issues with AI.

Well I'm very happy with how TDM plays as it is right now, so I'm not too bothered that ledge hanging won't be added. I just thought it would be a fun addition, without realizing all the problems it could cause.


That to was something I had wanted ever since I could ledge climb.

But by this point its very easy to start getting feature creep now that the game is finally reaching that big release... but at the same time I really like those possible features.

I acknowledge the state TDM is currently in and the commitment to focusing on bug fixes for the sake of a 2.0 standalone release. I'm talking about a future beyond that point. I figured the open source nature of TDM would make it a living project with a moving goal post. Otherwise all we've really done here is trade away the constraints of one game engine for a set of new ones imposed by legacy maps.

The number of missions is only going to grow and it seems it's already a problem for even the simplest of additions. Perhaps there is a way to bundle maps with the version of the mod they were designed for? Maybe the engine can load up a separate game library? I don't have the expertise to say if either are viable long term solutions. But without one I believe a backwards incompatible TDM is inevitable. It will be history repeating itself.


I don't see how old maps are at all relevant. The point of TDM becoming standalone is that anything is possible. After there is a v2 release, any idea is a viable one.
The only restraint now is temporary one.. to focus on bugs and polish.

#70 Springheel

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:14 AM

I don't see how old maps are at all relevant.


They're relevant because TDM _is_ its maps. It doesn't matter how great the engine or assets are, if there aren't good missions, TDM will die a quick death.

Good maps require dedication from mappers. It's a huge endeavour. And I can't think of anything more off-putting to a potential mapper than to be told that his finished map might break in six months because something changed in the mod. Nor do mappers want to have to go back and open up completed maps to fix things that that other people broke.

If we want TDM to thrive, we need mappers. Lots of them. Going standalone is really only important because it will hopefully increase the number of people we have creating TDM missions.
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#71 Sotha

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:04 PM

They're relevant because TDM _is_ its maps. It doesn't matter how great the engine or assets are, if there aren't good missions, TDM will die a quick death.

Good maps require dedication from mappers. It's a huge endeavour. And I can't think of anything more off-putting to a potential mapper than to be told that his finished map might break in six months because something changed in the mod. Nor do mappers want to have to go back and open up completed maps to fix things that that other people broke.

If we want TDM to thrive, we need mappers. Lots of them. Going standalone is really only important because it will hopefully increase the number of people we have creating TDM missions.


Amen, brother! (May TDM protect me from sloth and other sinful thoughts.)
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#72 Obsttorte

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:25 PM

BTW: IMHO a live-shop *into* the mission (and not in the beginning when you have no idea of what you'll need) it's a great idea for the mod.

I remember a great mission for Thief2 by Sterlino named "The Horn of Canzo" with this kind of live-shop in game (a scripted and very simple one, but it's works). So if you have to buy something that it's really important for the mission, you have to find gold before.

Shadowhide and myself already provided a way to implement this. It was just not used by now. I'm planning to use this feature in one of the FM's I'm currently working one.

See here and here.
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#73 Ladro

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:45 PM

Shadowhide and myself already provided a way to implement this. It was just not used by now. I'm planning to use this feature in one of the FM's I'm currently working one.

See here and here.


Sounds good! :-D

It will be cool to grab gold now, if I can spend it!

#74 SirGen

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:40 PM

Laying on the ground is referred to as prone and is used in a lot of war games. Prone is something that has to be very carefully implemented in the engine. For instance if one can prone (lay down) does a tree trunk block the AI view? does a shrub block the AI View? From the prone position does the jump key make the player stand up or jump? I can see a deul stage key implemented so the first press crouches, The second prone or lay down, The third press crouches and the fourth back to standing.

I like the idea of going prone too; as long as it won't break any missions. My issue with the four step system you mentioned is if I need to hurry and crouch, then hurry and stand back up to run, I can't do that. I would have to go prone, go back to crouch, stand up, then run. I think that Metal Gear Solid 4 solved this by requiring the crouch button to be held in for a certain amount of time to go prone, while quickly tapping it would still go back and forth between standing and crouching as it does now.

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#75 SirGen

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:46 PM

You could buy equipment for a mission from the gold gathered in the previous one :P

Hahaha :laugh: No way! I wish I would've known that!!! Seriously though, I do miss gold having some worth. A big element of the Thief games for me, was knowing that the more loot I find on my current mission, the better chances I have of surviving the next mission. I consider 2400 gold a good take per mission. I realize that TDM's format is different than Thief's, so it's not really conducive to loot carrying over into other missions.

Edited by SirGen, 19 September 2013 - 07:03 PM.

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