92 replies to this topic

[SirGen]

I'm playing through Thief Gold atm (totally awesome). Took a long time for me to figure out that the burricks react very sensitive on blackjack knocks from behind...

That's good to know. I agree, Thief Gold is totally awesome!

BTW: IMHO a live-shop *into* the mission (and not in the beginning when you have no idea of what you'll need) it's a great idea for the mod.

I remember a great mission for Thief2 by Sterlino named "The Horn of Canzo" with this kind of live-shop in game (a scripted and very simple one, but it's works). So if you have to buy something that it's really important for the mission, you have to find gold before.

That is a really great idea! For some missions it would make sense to have a physical location, e.g. a town setting. Manors and woodsie places could just have a menu that could be accessed the same way you would access the objectives screen.

"Whatcha buyin'? Whatcha sellin'?

Edited by SirGen, 19 September 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[Ladro]

That's good to know. I agree, Thief Gold is totally awesome!
[/size] That is a really great idea! For some missions it would make sense to have a physical location, e.g. a town setting. Manors and woodsie places could just have a menu that could be accessed the same way you would access the objectives screen.

"Whatcha buyin'? Whatcha sellin'?

As Obsttorte said, there is already a script to make live-shop *in* game, but nobody used it till now.

I hope some missions will use it in the future, because IMHO it's a great opportunity for some original and effective gameplay in a FM, rather then buy equipment *before* a mission that, always my 2 cents, it's a completely nonsense.

[Sotha]

I see logical reasons why ingame shops have not been seen yet. They require the map to exhibit a) the robbing target location and b ) a neutral location where to sell. If this requirement is not met, the ingame shop will feel artificial.

This risks making a horribly unfocused mission like The Alchemist. Nay, all the better missions have a single location they do well: a city mission or a manor mission. Difficult to do both at the same time properly.

I await with great interest any works that will change my views. Only a successful map will do, not opinions.

[Ladro]

I see logical reasons why ingame shops have not been seen yet. They require the map to exhibit a) the robbing target location and b ) a neutral location where to sell. If this requirement is not met, the ingame shop will feel artificial.

This risks making a horribly unfocused mission like The Alchemist. Nay, all the better missions have a single location they do well: a city mission or a manor mission. Difficult to do both at the same time properly.

I await with great interest any works that will change my views. Only a successful map will do, not opinions.

I understand your opinion, and it's absolutely true that it can be really artificial to have a shop with a mono-location map (generally speaking, any not big map). It's really strange also that a thief uses a shop to buy stuff with gold rather then be a thief :-D
But in gameplay logic, I see that having shop *before* a mission, as it is now (and the concept was as is in the first Thief), it's *really* artificial too, and normally I hate to buy equipement when I don't know what I really need in the mission.
A live shop justify also *why* in the game we need to grab gold and jewelry, IE to buy some stuff that it's needed to have a progression in the game itself. It can be used to have some really interesting story and gameplay, IMHO.

I agree it's really challenging, but as you say, only good maps can make a demonstration.

[Springheel]

I see that having shop *before* a mission, as it is now (and the concept was as is in the first Thief), it's *really* artificial too

I don't see why it's artificial...I would assume a thief would plan in advance for a heist, and part of that planning would be spending money on equipment.

On the other hand, the idea of there being "stores" that have shelves full of tools for thieves, strikes me as a little bit silly, like a modern store full of high quality spy equipment on the shelves. I would assume thieves would get their tools from underground dealers or backroom importers, the same way people buy illegal guns today.

[stumpy]

in the original game Garrett got them from normal shops, but they were sold as under the counter goods, so not on general display. I suppose it would be a normal grocers, pull a lever and the veg and fruit displays pull back to reveal the under the counter goods, pull the lever again and the veg and fruit displays slide back. So under the apple display there's actually water crystals on sale ready to be attached to a broadhead arrow. The broadhead arrows would be on regular display and brought from the nearest Fletcher, as hunting goods. Probably with a range of bows of different pull weights. You'll be able to get daggers and swords from a blacksmith. Seeing as these usually have to be regularly oiled to stop them rusting there would be a shop for different types of oil, as was used in thief 3. Lockpicks would probably be under the counter goods the blacksmith would sell. Am not too sure but I think early locks were made by blacksmiths, before they branched off into locksmiths.

[Ladro]

I don't see why it's artificial...I would assume a thief would plan in advance for a heist, and part of that planning would be spending money on equipment.

On the other hand, the idea of there being "stores" that have shelves full of tools for thieves, strikes me as a little bit silly, like a modern store full of high quality spy equipment on the shelves. I would assume thieves would get their tools from underground dealers or backroom importers, the same way people buy illegal guns today.

I'm not totally versus with the idea of the shop before the game, but for the gameplay it sometimes (IMHO) it's annoying. I have to choose in advance if I need 3 rope arrow, rather then 5, or if it's better to buy more water arrow, or some mines. Sometimes I'd like to choose *in* the game, not before the mission, when i cannot know what I need. Choose the right tools, before, it's not a game skill, IMHO. Of course if a mission it's well made, you can find these tools in game.

This is the first point. The second point is if it's possible to stimulate some new gameplay by using it (the gold) live in some way *in* the mission.

An example, as said: I remember the Sterlino's mission (Horn of Canzo) where it was a must to search every piece of gold hidden in the first part of the map (a cavern and a little with waterfall), to buy in the shop the equipement needed to make a progression in the map. Great idea, great gameplay, IMHO, because otherwise I would never grabbed all the gold.

[SirGen]

I agree with Springheel about a thief planning a heist. The thief may not know exactly how many rope or water arrows are needed for a given mission, and my have to guess. I no longer care for the idea of a store that could be accessed at any time through a menu, I agree with Sotha that it would feel artificial. I still see a place for a physical location within a city setting. I imagine a mission where the city streets are your first obstacle. You could steal loot throughout the city to save up for helpful equipment that will aid you in your heist that will take place in a castle or manor within that city. "Life of the Party" comes to mind.

Edited by SirGen, 21 September 2013 - 02:32 PM.

[Obsttorte]

I think it really depends on the mission setting, too. But it could be good for any mission were you start with nothing, and have to prepare for the big deal. For example a little city section, where you can break into the houses to get some loot or pickpocket some people, then get to a dealer hidden in a sideway and buy some equipment to finally break into a castle or manor or whatsoever.

In addition, not all missions have to have one target location only. A mission could also be about getting a certain amount of loot in a certain location (I guess city sections fit most here, but it could also be something else). Some parts may be accessible, while others may require specific equipment, which you have to get some loot first before you can enter. Or you don't know where your target is etc...

The main idea behind me creating scripts such as this is to provide the possibility to create things that may differ from the general thief experience. Whether or not they are used depends on the mappers. Just because they exists it don't mean that they have to be used and just because someone says that it may be a cool feature it don't means that he or she wants it to appear in all missions.

[Ladro]

I agree with Springheel about a thief planning a heist. The thief may not know exactly how many rope or water arrows are needed for a given mission, and my have to guess. I no longer care for the idea of a store that could be accessed at any time through a menu, I agree with Sotha that it would feel artificial. I still see a place for a physical location within a city setting. I imagine a mission where the city streets are your first obstacle. You could steal loot throughout the city to save up for helpful equipment that will aid you in your heist that will take place in a castle or manor within that city. "Life of the Party" comes to mind.

I don't like too a store always accessibile by menu, I never said that.
I said only that sometimes a live shop in game can be really interesting for some different gameplay in a mission. I mentioned the T2 mission of Sterlino "Horn of Canzo", that's a great example of what I mean.
Shopping *before* game, IMHO, if it's not related with some strong clue in the story of the text briefing (you remember when you can buy a map, o some text tips to enter in a manor in classic Thief missions), or some interesting cause for the gameplay, it's not useful. That's why a lot of times (not always) I don't like to buy equiment before a mission, and normally I like a mission where you have to find in game your tools to progress.

The ancient romans said: "De gustibus non disputandum est" :-D

[Ladro]

I think it really depends on the mission setting, too. But it could be good for any mission were you start with nothing, and have to prepare for the big deal. For example a little city section, where you can break into the houses to get some loot or pickpocket some people, then get to a dealer hidden in a sideway and buy some equipment to finally break into a castle or manor or whatsoever.

In addition, not all missions have to have one target location only. A mission could also be about getting a certain amount of loot in a certain location (I guess city sections fit most here, but it could also be something else). Some parts may be accessible, while others may require specific equipment, which you have to get some loot first before you can enter. Or you don't know where your target is etc...

The main idea behind me creating scripts such as this is to provide the possibility to create things that may differ from the general thief experience. Whether or not they are used depends on the mappers. Just because they exists it don't mean that they have to be used and just because someone says that it may be a cool feature it don't means that he or she wants it to appear in all missions.

I quote and subscribe every word :-D

[SirGen]

I don't like too a store always accessibile by menu, I never said that.
I said only that sometimes a live shop in game can be really interesting for some different gameplay in a mission. I mentioned the T2 mission of Sterlino "Horn of Canzo", that's a great example of what I mean.
Shopping *before* game, IMHO, if it's not related with some strong clue in the story of the text briefing (you remember when you can buy a map, o some text tips to enter in a manor in classic Thief missions), or some interesting cause for the gameplay, it's not useful. That's why a lot of times (not always) I don't like to buy equiment before a mission, and normally I like a mission where you have to find in game your tools to progress.

The ancient romans said: "De gustibus non disputandum est" :-D

Sorry for the confusion. I was the one who suggested a menu store.

[Ubersuntzu]

A bit late to the party but I'm playing through Thomas Porter 2: Beleaguered Fence and the lack of ability to peek into rooms before entering them in close quarters map with this many guards is downright painful. It's all luck and save scumming and no skill or finesse.

 

My ideal solutions would be either the keyhole system that Dishonored as was discussed earlier or maybe a mirror tool that you could slide under doors.

 

I know Springheel said keyhole peeking isn't very realistic, but nothing is less realistic than constant reloading until you get the result you want.

[Springheel]

You can lean against the door and listen to the next room.  That will tell you whether there are any guards.  And you can open doors just a crack to peer through as well.

[Ubersuntzu]

Yeah, I understand what you're supposed to do under normal circumstance, but those are a lot more helpful in your standard low difficulty missions then in well patrolled areas with more realistic lighting.

 

It wasn't really a question of *if* there are any guards. I knew there were guards constantly coming and going, but I had no choice. The problem was that I was trying to pass through a long hallway with a door on each end and two on each side with a different guard rotating through on a different patrol path roughly every 20-30 seconds, with only a small opportunity to dash to a shadow in the middle. Listening wouldn't really help in that situation because it wouldn't tell me if someone was coming or going, and peeking through a doorway helps more if what you're hoping to look at is close by, not at the opposite end of a hall while you're lit up by an electric light.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the standard mechanics only help if the map isn't set up like a fortress, and of course some are.

[Abusimplea]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the standard mechanics only help if the map isn't set up like a fortress, and of course some are.

Consider using your blackjack. If guards patrol the room you are in and there is shadow in the same room, then you can probably blackjack camp in that room. Lurk in the shadow until a guard comes in and blackjack it while it's closing the door or on its way out. Stash the body somewhere safe and repeat until no AI has entered that room for some time. Then proceed to the next room and either switch back to casual thievery or continue securing the area depending on prefered playstyle.

 

A few areas in TDM missions do exhibit layouts and patrols like you would expect them to be like if an experienced guard's captain did his job right. That areas are really hard to ghost by (by intention i would guess). But they are far from being common and you still got your tools and all that movable clutter, authors place in their missions. Apart from blackjack camping (wich is absurdly effective in stealth games in general - to the point where it feels like cheating if you do it in non-fortress areas), there are:

 

- Bait: Turn off some light and wait in the shadows near that switch. Blackjack the guard as it tries to turn that light back on. Also works with doors left open and rope arrow ropes. Light baiting and door baiting obviously don't work with AI that isn't configured to react to such things (but in fortress-like areas they likely are configured to react).

 

- Patrol pattern timing manipulation: Distract a guard using a noisemaker, opened door, thrown clutter... to make it leave his patrol pattern for a short time so its pattern becomes out of sync regarding the patterns of other guards. Use the tactic to turn efficient patrol timings into inefficient ones. Patrols might get resynced at certain points on the map, but most authors do not bother to implement that.

 

- Indirect water arrow torch removal: Aim a water arrow at the ceiling above a torch-wielding guard to extinguish the torch without alerting the guard (in most missions, it will just drop the torch and continue its patrol). Also works with a nearby wall if the water from the arrow reaches the torch while falling down. I experienced a guard wich came back with a fresh torch after i extinguished its old one and let it complete his patrol once (you can still use the darkness right after dousing his torch though).

 

- Imprisonment: Drop two movables in front of a door so that they block each other to prevent that door from opening towards the movables. Always works when using crates on any moving door with any AI trying to open it. This probably is bug-using at least (probably even considered cheating by most). AI will not cry for help in such situations. The door will try to push the movables aside but the physics engine doesn't handle inertia propagation past the first blocking movable. The guard sometimes tries to use another way though, so make sure to apply that tactic to an already cleaned room that only features one exit just after the AI entered it. I only use that method as a last resort when the author throws un-ko-able AI or arbitrary knockout restrictions at me.

[Ubersuntzu]

Consider using your blackjack. 

 

Yeah, that's what I would normally do, but the mission in question doesn't give you one by default. Not until you reach and unlock an evidence lock-up room deep inside the building, and being forced to ghost up until that point is what got me thinking about these issues.

Edited by Ubersuntzu, 07 July 2018 - 07:11 PM.

[Abusimplea]

Yeah, that's what I would normally do, but the mission in question doesn't give you one by default. Not until you reach and unlock an evidence lock-up room deep inside the building, and being forced to ghost up until that point is what got me thinking about these issues.

If the author made the mission extra hard to ghost and ensured that you have to ghost - he would probably have used doors without a keyhole to peek through (especially if the author is Sotha *g*).

 

But there is a thread for that mission - you could scan for hints there.