Sometimes I wish TDM were harder

[Sotha]

I agree with Springs.

 

chk772, you can play however you want, but I really, truly, recommend you to play a mission or two completely without saving or loading. Start with the smallest ones.

 

Dealing with the consequences of being seen makes the game much more interesting.

 

I recommend this to everyone who use save/loading a lot. Stop doing it. Try out the game, there is a completely new depth of gameplay you are constantly missing.

 

What does a good stealth score mean if you save loaded? It means that you spammed the save/load buttons, nothing more.

 

But in a normal mission, i don't understand a mission objective like "Don't KO or kill anyone". I mean, why?

 

Because it is a higher difficulty. Higher difficulty imposes restrictions in order to increase the challenge. If you are not allowed to KO or kill AI, you cannot just clear the map of AI and do what you want. It guides the player towards more challenge. Most of the missions have an easy difficulty that allows you to kill and KO and do whatever you want.

[SirGen]

Well, of course it's down to preference, but a sword fight? Can't imagine a thief sneaking into some mansion, moving from shadow to shadow, only to get into a sword fight the next moment. The moment i have to use the sword, is the moment i will quick load, because for me, it ruins the whole mission when i get caught or seen.

The funny thing is; when I first started playing Thief, it wasn't the stealth that enticed me. It was the huge levels, the freedom and the combat. I played Thief as an action game. I actually got very good at it. I remember fighting 5 of Ramirez's boys at once and I won! I also don't find it strange at all that a thief would develop decent combat skills to defend themselves if they got caught without a good escape route. I enjoy both stealth and combat. In the wise words of Eric Cartman, "I do what I want!" Edited October 14, 2013 by SirGen

[Springheel]

I came to Thief from fantasy RPGs, where its quite common for thieves to fight with swords. They're just not as good at it.

[stumpy]

in a country where the power supply isn't reliable to be on then you have to save every so often. as in people stealing copper cable from the sub stations after the power comes from the national grid.

Edited October 14, 2013 by stumpy

[chakkman]

@ Sotha: I maybe quickload 3 or 4 times in a mission, not exactly spamming the button. That's my way of playing and enkoying the game, bit perfectionistic. I get your point about the stealth rating though, it's true. But for me, it's frustrating if i have messed up the whole levelby alerting a lot of guards, call it impatience.

 

Interesting to see though how different the approached are though. I guess the magic for mappers will be to serve most of them.

[Melan]

I came to Thief from fantasy RPGs, where its quite common for thieves to fight with swords. They're just not as good at it.

The Grey Mouser used a sword and he was totally a thief. (And that series is where thieves' guilds come from in the first place, so it's pretty reputable. )

[AluminumHaste]

Yeah I'm a quick load whore.

[IHaveReturned]

First of all, no that's wrong, it is not marketed as Thief. Here, from the front page:

 

THE DARK MOD 2.0 is a free, first-person stealth game inspired by the Thief series by Looking Glass Studios. It recreates the essence of the original Thief games on a more modern engine.

The point of communication is not what is explicitly said, that is called technicalities or pedantry. The point of communication is what is implied. And this text implies to the user that TDM is meant to be the Thief they knew, in an updated engine. Or at least the devs' best effort towards that. But as I have learned over the past few days, that isn't actually the case. It is meant to be a hardcore version thereof, even on its easiest difficulty setting. One it doesn't even default to, as it turns out.

 

However, since I didn't pay for nothing, and this isn't official canon, I can't very well complain about the craftsmanship. That seems spot on for what it is, actually. I can, however, express my disappointment and incredulousness towards fans who no doubt have partaken in bashing ISA and EM for years, turn around and deviate from the beloved formula themselves, even in areas completely under their control such as gameplay. I always hear it said, "At least we have TDM" whenever EM gives us the finger. But I don't feel like I do.

 

You are doing it wrong, absolutely, completely wrong. If you are so close to the AI that you can't hit them without bumping into them, as you say here:

I don't care. BJ range has been reduced, and combined with everything else, it is robbing me of enjoyment when I have the misfortune of meeting one of the more alert or helmeted guards. Don't fix what ain't broke, is what we have been saying to EM. But we were no better ourselves. And before anyone tries it, I am not talking about KOing the legs.

 

Then that's wrong. Watch my video again and really WATCH it. I don't get close to them, I'm still about 3 feet away, maybe more when I blackjack them.

Hell, I blackjacked an AI sitting in a chair, across a desk while I was on the windowsill!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then I don't know what to tell you. I have had to crouch and frontlean, after having carfully positioned myself at their heads first, in order to have even a prayer of reaching the head of a sleeping AI in a bed.

 

You've already been told that the Thief skillset for blackjacking is useless here, and for good reason. The Thief 1/2 AI were pants on head retardedly easy to blackjack, what skillset are you talking about possessing?

Then I am not getting the game experience it was implied I would. Which I expected from fans who, unlike ISA and EM, weren't hellbent on changing the formula around. Or at least, that is what I thought. I doubt I was alone.

As for LGS!Thief BJ difficulty: Yes, you are right, they were. And still these games are considered somewhat hardcore. And still I have seen Let's Players struggle tensely with them. Personally I am good enough that I can appreciate removal of its more ridicilous features, such as KOing legs and never being detected while directly behind them, but that isn't even close to being the extent to which things have changed. The difficulty has not changed a little, it is playing in a different league altogehter.

 

Also, you might as well give up trying to defeat my Thief purism by appealing to my pride as a gamer. No wonder no one complains about this, if you get ridiculed for not being good enough.

 

AlsoI just tried 5 different maps, and walking up behind AI for as long as I could before they detected something and turned around to see what it was. So that's dirt, wood, stone, grass and carpet texture. The carpet texture I was able to RUN up behind an AI and he didn't go above alert level 1.

The others were a mixed bag with wood and stone being the worst. With those I had enough time to get right up behind them and blackjack, but if I waited a few seconds more then game over, they turned to see what was sneaking up behind them.

That sounds reasonable for the less alert guards on Nearly Blind difficulty. And I am pleased as a puppy with those. Some guards, though, can hear me walk on wood or see me when I am behind them even on that difficulty. If I up it to "Forgiving" these same guards will hear me take one step on wood before going into 2nd alert, and will see me from behind walking on a carpet in 50% of cases. I dare not even contemplate Hardcore difficulty!

Edited October 14, 2013 by IHaveReturned

[AluminumHaste]

Yes there are a few LPers who've had difficulty with blackjacking in TDM, FenPhoenix being one of them. Until just recently. He just posted this:

 

 

So as you can see, he watched the video I posted, and now, after 1 day of trying, has learned how to properly blackjack. So what's stopping you from learning? Aside from a refusal to try?

I still don't understand why you are here. It's clear you have no intention of ever actually wholeheartedly trying to get better at it.

 

And sure it's playing in a different league altogether, one that 20,000 people have no problem with, except you. I think that points to where the actual problem lies.

[AluminumHaste]

Then I am not getting the game experience it was implied I would. Which I expected from fans who, unlike ISA and EM, weren't hellbent on changing the formula around. Or at least, that is what I thought. I doubt I was alone.

 

Also, you might as well give up trying to defeat my Thief purism by appealing to my pride as a gamer. No wonder no one complains about this, if you get ridiculed for not being good enough.

 

You mean you're not getting the game experience you inferred, no one here has ever said this was Thief.

 

No one is ridiculing you for not being good enough (except me of course), what people seem to have trouble with is you not trying to get better, but rather just complaining that it's too hard.

[AluminumHaste]

Then I don't know what to tell you. I have had to crouch and frontlean, after having carfully positioned myself at their heads first, in order to have even a prayer of reaching the head of a sleeping AI in a bed.

 

 

Oh that, don't bother with trying to KO sleeping guards, make some noise to get them to get up, or just keep hitting them until you KO them, that's what I did in the video I posted yesterday........

[chakkman]

Or just let them sleep. After all it's the desired state.

[Xarg]

You know your argument is going well when you're trying to tell someone how language works, even though there are entire libraries of technical documents that would like to have a word with you about "The point of communication is not what is explicitly said, that is called technicalities or pedantry. The point of communication is what is implied.". You were never promised Thief. You were offered an inspired-by-Thief experience. While I skimmed some sections of the Wikipedia article on communication, I never saw your implication stated. I did however, find "Certain attitudes can also make communication difficult. For instance, great anger or sadness may cause someone to lose focus on the present moment. Disorders such as Autism may also severely hamper effective communication." filed under Psychological Noise.

 

Now, I'm certainly not trying explicitly or implicitly to state that you have autism, but there seem to be definite signs of an attitude problem making communication difficult here. Don't make me look up inspiration to further drive this home, it's far too much work for the reply I'm sure I'll get.

[7upMan]

To be honest, I'm wondering the whole time if IHaveReturned is not the next incarnation of Aida Keeley you are talking to. Or maybe it's ZylonBane. They both have a shit personality.

[Sotha]

@7upMan, it's been a while since we had a troll here. Hopefully people won't spend too much their time feeding it, as it usually is pointless.

[AluminumHaste]

I'm starting to get the feeling this is just Aida. His arguments are starting to sound to familiar.

[Springheel]

Let's avoid personal attacks, folks.

 

TDM is not going to suit everyone's taste. Some people will give it an honest try and simply not take to it, (and some are going to be determined not to like it from the start). We're a niche game and proud of it. I find the comparisons between us and EM a little amusing for that reason; they're specifically watering down the stealth experience to try to try and appeal to everyone. That's not our approach and never has been.

 

But there's no need to try to argue someone into liking something they don't like. It won't work, and it isn't necessary.

[IHaveReturned]

1) There are plenty of difficulty adjustments: mission difficulty and all the difficulty controls in the objective screens (ai vision, combat settings, lockpicking settings and more!) There really isn't a need to add any more! Lets spend the energy elsewhere. Limited manpower and difficulty reason 2) and 3) below.

There are, and too many would be a problem I agree. But the lowest AI perception level at least ought to be similar to Thief in what is, as was rightly said, a toolset to accomodate mappers inspired by that very game. That is a matter of idealism (and in my case enjoyment) considering the reason we are all here in the first place, not a matter of anybody's ability to learn new strategies.

 

I've conceded that knockouts are satisfying in their own way already. What I'm saying, though, is that designing missions without a blackjack can lead do something a lot more fun, dynamic and faithful to what makes the Thief formula good (I'm pretty sure we actually agree on what that is). Thief gives you the freedom to engage it your way, and not necessarily the precise way the designer intended. I think as it stands, the blackjack is an unfortunate indicator to the contrary. It doesn't tell a newbie that "this is a game about solving problems your way," it says that "this is a game about clubbing heads" because it's such a one size fits all solution. Ironically, removing an option actually opened me up to a lot more.

This guy has a point, actually.

 

If TDM was all about replicating the Thief experience, his request would be unreasonable on its face, because BJing is integral to that experience. But seeing as dev intent is more to make the most realistic and pure stealth experience they could, merely inspired by Thief, removing the blackjack can be seen as a reasonable extension of that.

 

I don't like it, but I don't like the new AI with eyes in the back of its head either.

Edited October 15, 2013 by IHaveReturned

[Serpentine]

noTarget, it'll make the game into just what you're looking for!

[Springheel]

But seeing as dev intent is more to make the most realistic and pure stealth experience they could, merely inspired by Thief, removing the blackjack can be seen as a reasonable extension of that.

 

I don't like it, but I don't like the new AI with eyes in the back of its head either.

 

Are you planning on just continuing to complain? You've made your opinion pretty clear, and at one point said you were going to wait and see if there were any other complaints along similar lines, which seemed like a reasonable approach. On the other hand, continuing to restate that you don't like it, and making pointedly misleading statements about what the "dev intent" was, isn't going to accomplish anything.

[IHaveReturned]

Yes there are a few LPers who've had difficulty with blackjacking in TDM, FenPhoenix being one of them. Until just recently. He just posted this:

 

So as you can see, he watched the video I posted, and now, after 1 day of trying, has learned how to properly blackjack. So what's stopping you from learning?

At the moment? The fact that it is a rather big percentage of blind luck determining my ability to get close enough to try in illuminated areas, no matter what Perception difficulty I am playing on. In general, getting humbled at something I expected to be good at, getting frustrated with several reloads on the same damn guard, and ragequitting. Feeling like the mechanic needs tweaking anyway, so learning to compensate is a waste of time. That sort of thing.

 

Your continued harping on this besides-the-point issue does not inspire me to keep discussing this with you.

 

I still don't understand why you are here. It's clear you have no intention of ever actually wholeheartedly trying to get better at it.

Because I desperately want to like this game. Because I want it to succeed with as many people as possible. And because I feel that at the very least permitting Thief-level gameplay is a no-brainer for a mod like this, and will greatly aid the first two reasons. It's a highly versatile and flexible toolset for people who are using it because they have played Thief. Why does that not include Thief-level gameplay as one of its possible features?! It boggles the mind.

 

And sure it's playing in a different league altogether, one that 20,000 people have no problem with, except you. I think that points to where the actual problem lies.

Considering how hard you, a dev...I mean, Contrbutor is working to tear me down for it, I wouldn't be so sure I am the only one. Just the only one with the nuts to admit it.

I mean, I have no doubt levels are beatable, even on Hardcore, if one abuses various gadgets and shadow stealth while ignoring illuminated blackjack takedowns. I'm not saying missions cannot be beaten under this new paradigm. But I guess that among those few with the nuts to admit incompetence at BJing, even fewer are also purist enough to see a problem with old strategies having become impossible, being content to adapt to new ones instead. That leaves few complainers.

 

But for this to be a genuine Thief experience, illuminated takedowns without relying on luck and save-scumming is a requirement. If this isn't meant to be a genuine Thief experience, I think most of those 20.000 people would be taken somewhat aback. I'm sure most of them didn't go into this expecting Deux Ex or Thievery. They expected a Thief-clone. I don't even see why you are trying to deny that. It smacks of unreasonable contrarianism.

 

Oh that, don't bother with trying to KO sleeping guards, make some noise to get them to get up, or just keep hitting them until you KO them, that's what I did in the video I posted yesterday........

In other words, more compensation for what shouldn't have been an issue in the first place. *sigh*

 

You know your argument is going well when you're trying to tell someone how language works, even though there are entire libraries of technical documents that would like to have a word with you about "The point of communication is not what is explicitly said, that is called technicalities or pedantry. The point of communication is what is implied."

Last I heard, we were unable to create computers capable of replicating human speech, precisely because it is so heavily reliant of context and slang, whereas the computer needs the isolated words and sentences to provide all necessary information. It is the same reason you'd often be totally clueless coming into a long discussion and being exposed to a single sentence and its reply. Because the information provided by those alone are not nearly enough to grasp what is going on. The implication, however, that is informed by the complete picture. In this case known Thief modders being involved in a project promising to be inspired by Thief, with the only deviation mentioned anywhere being that it is in a new engine, and that copyrighted stuff would be changed, with pictures of ninjas with blackjacks and bows taking on pseudo-Hammerites and guards in a medieval setting.

It is implied, without hint of implication to the contrary. That is it's main selling point. I'll say as I did to Aluminum, trying to pretend otherwise just smacks of contrarianism.

 

Now, I'm certainly not trying explicitly or implicitly to state that you have autism, but there seem to be definite signs of an attitude problem making communication difficult here.

Aww, so you do understand the difference. And well enough to apply it in practice for an ad hominem attack. Well, then you really don't need look up anything on Wikipedia, your intuitive grasp of the concept should steer you straight right away.

 

@7upMan, it's been a while since we had a troll here. Hopefully people won't spend too much their time feeding it, as it usually is pointless.

My, and here I thought the definition of a troll was someone completely unreasonable who was just trying to get a rise out of people. Any other local lingo I should know about?

 

Of course, it's not like I haven't seen peoples argumentative repertoire being reduced to personal attacks once they have run out of counterarguments a million times before.

(Hint for Xarg and Aluminum: The above^ was an example of implication. It hasn't actually happened a million times before, but is a way to communicate that it has happened so many times that I have lost count).

 

noTarget, it'll make the game into just what you're looking for!

Never in a million years would I have thought that in the same thread as Broken Glass members, I would be the bigger purist.

 

I mean, you are after all giving me the choice between cheatcodes or hardcore, when all I want is LGS!Thief.

 

We're a niche game and proud of it. I find the comparisons between us and EM a little amusing for that reason; they're specifically watering down the stealth experience to try to try and appeal to everyone. That's not our approach and never has been.

I thought Thief was a niche game. Was it really necessary to make TDM even more so by design? Hell, in that case you guys might as well close the Greenlight thread right now, for that is the gateway to mainstream, if there ever was one.

 

Also, by this logic, would EM have been totally in the clear if only their twisted end result was more difficult than LGS!Thief? Seems to me deviation is deviation, Broken Glass has just deviated far less than EM has.

 

Are you planning on just continuing to complain? You've made your opinion pretty clear, and at one point said you were going to wait and see if there were any other complaints along similar lines, which seemed like a reasonable approach. On the other hand, continuing to restate that you don't like it, and making pointedly misleading statements about what the "dev intent" was, isn't going to accomplish anything.

Dude, I was more than ready to let the issue rest until Aluminum started this obvious counterthread. Everything else has been attempts to clarify my position against endless misunderstandings and misrepresentations, some probably deliberate. I am more than happy to let the issue rest unless the opposition keeps pretending not to understand what I have been saying.

Edited October 15, 2013 by IHaveReturned

[Serpentine]

Great strawman at a glance. 8/10 for effort.

[AluminumHaste]

At the moment? The fact that it is a rather big percentage of blind luck determining my ability to get close enough to try in illuminated areas, no matter what Perception difficulty I am playing on. In general, getting humbled at something I expected to be good at, getting frustrated with several reloads on the same damn guard, and ragequitting. Feeling like the mechanic needs tweaking anyway, so learning to compensate is a waste of time. That sort of thing.

 

Your continued harping on this besides-the-point issue does not inspire me to keep discussing this with you.

 

Because there is no besides-the-point-issue here, this is the way Blackjacking works. Learn to compensate for it or don't.

I'm trying to help (and being a dick about it kind of ) but really no matter how many tutorials or testimonials or whatever you watch or read, is not going to do a damn thing until you keep trying until you get the hang of it

 

Yes it's hard, I had trouble with it at first too. I used to only get 1/3ish attempts at blackjacking, sometimes I missed completely, sometimes I hit the helmet etc. Then it was made easier a couple revisions ago and I had less failed attempts.

It took a while but now I'm really good at it, like anything it requires effort to learn.

 

I've been playing FPS all my life, ever since I was a kid, but I wasn't good at QuakeLive when I started back in 2009 during Beta. Took me YEARS to get to Tier 5.

And I'm good at Thief 1/2 but I am not very good with Thief 3 because it's so different. But I worked at it enough to beat the game on the hardest difficulty, and even tried the minimalist mod, but found it too difficult.

 

And BTW, you can't see it but in the dev sub forum we have a thread that has collated all the TDM news from around the internet, and I have to say, of all the discussion going on, no one seems to be complaining about blackjacking being hard. Combat being hard yes, general bugs because of bad installs and stuff, sure, but that's it.

There is 0 outcry for easier/different blackjacking from the general internets community.

 

Yes I was trolling you with this thread a bit, but mostly it was supposed to illuminate how easy it becomes once you get good at it.

 

[IHaveReturned]

Great strawman at a glance. 8/10 for effort.

Thank you, thank you. I now stand ready to rate your explanation of where I have misrepresented anyone. Seems only fair.

 

Really. Considering the pride I put in avoiding logical fallacies, I damn well need to know if I have comitted one without noticing.

 

And BTW, you can't see it but in the dev sub forum we have a thread that has collated all the TDM news from around the internet, and I have to say, of all the discussion going on, no one seems to be complaining about blackjacking being hard. Combat being hard yes, general bugs because of bad installs and stuff, sure, but that's it.

There is 0 outcry for easier/different blackjacking from the general internets community.

Give it some time to let the glitz and glamour wear off. I remember at least a few of those articles admitting that the author was still in the process of downloading or barely done with the training mission.

 

If few or none of the reviews mention anything, I'll start considering that the problem is with me. Not holding my breath.

Edited October 15, 2013 by IHaveReturned

[SirGen]

@IHaveReturned I truly feel bad that you do not love The Dark Mod as much as I do. It is by far my favorite game. I have had difficulties knocking out guards from time to time, but for the most part I have been successful. I only remember guards with extremely acute senses on a mission called Awaiting The Storm. Those fellas sure have great ears! TDM is not "my perfect video game," but it is the closest thing to it! There are things about it that I would like changed e.g. ledge hanging being added, enemies' melee attacks hurting each other while they're attacking the player, sprint not affecting the backwards and sideways walking of the player, and quite a few more. None of my requests have made any changes in the game as far as I know. I'm fine with this. Judging by your posts, you seem vastly more intelligent than I am. Even though TDM does not play exactly the way the Thief games did, I'm quite confident that if you keep at it, you will be great at it.

Edited October 15, 2013 by SirGen