Gamers Have It Easy These Days...

[Domarius]

Yeah but I just wanted to see what he thought of save points, even though its in danger of starting the same discussion here.

If anyone else discusses it, crack the whip.

 

 

The rest of my discussion (and his) was about the whole "save any time" problem of modern games, which is fairly conversational and has nothing to do with DarkMod features.

[sparhawk]

That was also related to the board where you and Spring posted some discussions.

[oDDity]

Well if we start discussing everything in the public suddenly, then why bother to keeping the dev boards seperate?

I wouldn't be bothered if they weren't private (althoghuobviosuily we wouldn't want peple poatig in them)

My problem with 'save any time' system that's become prevalent in games, is that it tears up the carefully crafted ease/difficulty balance of the game. Players use it as a constant crutch to get past what they percive has 'hard parts' without incurring any danger or punishment for failure.

[Springheel]

Maybe we can send Lou over with a bat. Each time a player fails and has to reload, Lou will break a kneecap. Just think how exciting the game would be then!

[oDDity]

Well at the very least, saving and loading the game should be accompanied by a screen with little friendly messages like 'Ha you fucking useless bastard, can't play the level without cheating eh? Why don't you go play with your sissa's dollies instead, we don't what shit like you soiling our game'

That would be an adequate compromise.

[Domarius]

Spring, its not about failing and re-loading - you do that with save points too.

 

Its about saving RIGHT at the critical moment - effectively you could create this perfect, matrix style movie of this guy not wasting a SINGLE bullet, and not taking a SINGLE hit, and taking the most perfect path around everything like they already knew what was going to happen, because each bit was done one moment at a time with quickload and quicksave.

Edited March 21, 2005 by Domarius

[Ishtvan]

Okay, I have to throw my suggestion in the ring now: When you restore a savegame, the game will call you a twat, and there will be a 10% chance that it will format your harddrive.

[Springheel]

Its about saving RIGHT at the critical moment - effectively you could create this perfect, matrix style movie of this guy not wasting a SINGLE bullet, and not taking a SINGLE hit, and taking the most perfect path around everything like they already knew what was going to happen

 

Dom, you often make the argument that we shouldn't make design decisions based on what bad FM authors might do. So why is it okay to make design decisions based on what bad *players* might do? Of the two, a poor FM author's decisions *might* impact us (if we play his mission). A poor player's decisions have no impact on us whatsoever.

[Ishtvan]

I have to agree with Springheel on this. What possible effect will it have on you if other people abuse the save feature? If you're worried about people abusing it to get "perfect" stats screens that they can brag about or whatever, all you have to do is keep track of number of times saved/reloaded and display it in the stats, or if we make it an OPTION to limit saves, just show the status of that option in the final stats display.

 

There will always be people who feel adamantly about saving, and even if we write it out of the game, someone will probably hack it back into their own game... and you can't stop them. So why waste the time worrying about how other people save in the first place? Just play how you want yourself, and set the option for limited saves if you aren't disciplined enough to limit your own saves.

Edited March 22, 2005 by Ishtvan

[Pyrian]

If you're worried about people abusing it to get "perfect" stats screens that they can brag about or whatever, all you have to do is keep track of number of times saved/reloaded and display it in the stats, or if we make it an OPTION to limit saves, just show the status of that option in the final stats display.

Y'know, that sounds like a great idea.

[Domarius]

Every time its brought up,someone thinks I'm on a crusade to write somethng out of the game.

 

First up, I'm not talking about darkmod, I'm talking about games in general.

 

Second, even if I was talking about the DarkMod, it would be an optional, FM author implemented feature.

 

Spring, the player is the one on the end of the experience that the FM author is creating, so its not to hard to understand that a different set of guide lines apply. Book authors are free to write the book whatever way they want, but in the end the reader has to read it from start to end to get the full effect. If they jump in halfway through, they won't get the full experince the author was trying to create. This is no different.

 

Finally, yes I agree that a settings page would solve the problem for the mod.

But again, I remind you, I'm not talking about the mod.

 

Look at the title of this discussion board guys. It says "Off topic", not "Feature requests".

[Springheel]

Well, in a non-mod related way then...

 

I have a wife and a baby. They frequently demand my time when I'm in the middle of a game, and telling them to wait until the next save point doesn't get very positive results. There are also phonecalls, doorbells, and other various real-life interruptions that require me to be able to save the game at a moment's notice and come back to it later.

 

A game that does not allow me to do that carries with it the implication that the experience of the game is somehow more important than both real life and my own convenience. Back in university where I had no responsibilities and could wank off any time I liked, it wasn't such a big deal. But now, games have to fit into my real life schedule, not the other way around.

[Domarius]

That can be aleviated with these things;

• Leaving the game on pause.
  
• Running back to the most recent save point and saving.
  

That solves a lot of those problems, leaving fewer possibilities where you really have to quit and lose your place.

 

And for times when you really have to quit, welll like other forms of entertainment, you make trade-offs on real life depending on how important it is to you. I just kill it and get back to it next time when I have more time.

 

For me, it worth the tension I get when I see a hard bit coming up and not wanting to die because I'll have a lot to lose.

When you just saved one second ago, that adrenalin just isn't there....

[sparhawk]

Can you be sure that Doom 3 is stable enough that it will run 17 hours uninterrupted? That is not as self evident as it may sound, because most games are done to get the stable enough to play, which doesn't include stresstesting usually. And I know for sure that I had problems in D3 because every second level exit the game crashed. I would be VERY pissed off, if I would have to replay from the last save point just because the final button causes a crash.

Saving is not always because we are pussies, as some seem to think on their narrow track.

[Dram]

Can you be sure that Doom 3 is stable enough that it will run 17 hours uninterrupted? That is not as self evident as it may sound, because most games are done to get the stable enough to play, which doesn't include stresstesting usually. And I know for sure that I had problems in D3 because every second level exit the game crashed. I would be VERY pissed off, if I would have to replay from the last save point just because the final button causes a crash.

Saving is not always because we are pussies, as some seem to think on their narrow track.

My MAXIMUM ABSOLUTELY LONGEST time I managed to play Doom3 without it crashing was.....5 hours? Wow, that's unstable

[sparhawk]

Since I was running through in god mode it took my only about 20 minutes per level (not sure as a didn't look at the watch. The game was so boring that I couldn't stand to play it in normal mode.

[oDDity]

Saving is not always because we are pussies, as some seem to think on their narrow track.

Yes, I'm afraid you are.. anyone who saves a game any more than at half hour intervals is a pussy - go look it up in a dictionary if you like -

 

 

 

 

puss·y

n. pl. puss·ies

Slang. A man regarded as weak, timid, or unmanly. One who save his or her progress in a computer game at unecessarily frequent intervals to avoid difficultly or challenge.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

[Dram]

LOL, here comes the flame-war

[sparhawk]

From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 :

 Narrow-minded \Nar"row-mind`ed\, a.
    Of narrow mental scope; lacking tolerance or breadth of view;
    illiberal; mean. Opposite of broad-minded, open-minded,
    liberal. [WordNet sense 2] [Narrower terms: dogmatic, dogmatical
  ; little, petty, small, small-minded]
 
    Syn: narrowminded, narrow, illiberal, intolerant.
         [1913 Webster + WordNet 1.5]
 
    2. Capable of being shocked by behavior of others. Opposite
       of unshockable. [WordNet sense 1]

 

Especially the first interpretation is quite interesting.

[oDDity]

Interesting AND amusing, considering I'm the only person on this team (apart form Domarius) who ISNT constantly wanting to copy Thief and every other game ever made no matter what the subject is

 

 

con·ven·tion·al

adj.

 

1: mindlesssly following accepted customs and proprieties;

2: conforming with accepted standards;

4: unimaginative and conformist;

5: represented in simplified or symbolic form

6: in accord with or being a tradition or practice accepted from the past;

7: rigidly formal or bound by convention;

[Fingernail]

Did I mention we're actually now making the Dark Mario Project?

[sparhawk]

stub·born   Audio pronunciation of "stubborn" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (stbrn)
adj. stub·born·er, stub·born·est

  1.
        1. Unreasonably, often perversely unyielding; bullheaded.
        2. Firmly resolved or determined; resolute. See Synonyms at obstinate.
  2. Characterized by perseverance; persistent.
  3. Difficult to treat or deal with; resistant to treatment or effort: stubborn soil; stubborn stains.

 

:lol:

[Springheel]

Spring, the player is the one on the end of the experience that the FM author is creating, so its not to hard to understand that a different set of guide lines apply. Book authors are free to write the book whatever way they want, but in the end the reader has to read it from start to end to get the full effect. If they jump in halfway through, they won't get the full experince the author was trying to create. This is no different.

 

I think the more accurate analogy is that save points are like a book that only lets you stop reading at the chapter breaks. Stop reading 19 pages into chapter three and the next time you start you have to read those 19 pages over again.

 

Sure, you might get an experience closer to what the author intended, but for most people it wouldn't be worth the repetition and inconvenience.

[Fingernail]

Or a film, that only lets you watch it from beginning to end with no breaks whatsover.

 

AND THEN IN 7 DAYS YOU DIE

 

¬¬

[oDDity]

Ahhh, the differences between the passive mediums of books and movies. and the interactive world of gaming. Where to start?