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Questions About Blackjacking And Movement


John D.

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I was curious about how the blackjack will be implemented. In TDS you cant KO someone with a sword out while you can still do it in T2 if he doesnt see you. In other words how difficult is it to KO someone?

 

The second question is about Garrett's body movement, I recently reinstalled TDS and replayed a couple of missions-only to discover one of the things that seemed to annoy me before, your movement seems rather sluggish and disconnected to the game world, how's it working out so far in D3? :)

I dont fear the dark...the dark fears me!

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Movement will be closer to the originals since we won't have the camera tied to the player model like T3 did.

 

KOing someone...we have about 50,000 different ideas on it, but haven't set it in stone just yet. Once again I think we're gonna go with the T2 style, but it's still up in the air at the moment.

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You can KO someone who's alert in T2? So much time wasted fleeing like a little girl. :(

 

I think the most important thing about KOing guards is the Kerr-chunk when the blackjack whacks them. Satisfying.

 

(((((( :ph34r: ))))))

Edited by Macsen
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Once again I think we're gonna go with the T2 style, but it's still up in the air at the moment.
I hope so, blackjacking is very difficult in TDS even on easy and I

HATE the automatic raise the jack does instead of letting the player do the distance estimating. I also wouldnt mind seeing the guards not so sensitive to being unintentionally bumped from behind when you're trying to smack them. If someone wants the guards to be hard to take out, it should be done by putting them in well lit areas/groups etc, not by jacking them up where it's hard to beat them.

Edited by John D.

I dont fear the dark...the dark fears me!

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I hope so, blackjacking is very difficult in TDS even on easy and I

HATE the automatic raise the jack does instead of letting the player do the distance estimating.

 

I also hate the automatic raising, but I never noticed that it is hard to blackjack on TDS. Actually it is just as easy like it is on T1/T2 once you got used to the raising.

Gerhard

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Blackjacking is not difficult in TDS, you can still run up behind AI and whack them befoire they know what's going on. (not a full on run, but a kind of run/stop/run/whack.

We're endevouring to make this game as difficult as possible, and the blackjack is one tool that we intend to balance, where before it has just been thrown into the THief games without a second thought.

We're changing it from a free, unlimited, permenant weapon that can be used to take out every AI on the map with ease, to ...well, you'll just have to wait and see.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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At oddities post, I remember in T3 on the museum I black jacked every single guard in the entire map and piled them up then did all the objectives... It was a bit silly. But at the same time there did not seem to be enough sneaksie ways to get around like a ventilation system/sewer or whatever...

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well how about making it possible for a guard to try and block your blackjack attempt if he is aware of you? you can still blackjack him but it's no longer a certainty.

 

And how about making it so that a guard can wake up after a random amount of time? and when he does wake up he runs about alerting others so things become even more difficult. The only way to prevent them from running about is to tie them up, or putting them somewhere so they can't get back to the rest of the guards, or kill them.

 

that makes it easier to blackjack but makes 'jackin less effective long term.

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And how about making it so that a guard can wake up after a random amount of time? and when he does wake up he runs about alerting others so things become even more difficult.

It will be great if guards could wake up after some time. And maybe even other guards could wake up unconcious guards using water.

 

The only way to prevent them from running about is to tie them up, or putting them somewhere so they can't get back to the rest of the guards, or kill them.

or locking the doors to rooms where we have placed the bodies... deep down in cellar, where no-one could hear them shouting.... B):)

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Guards waking up was voted down because it just gives the player a good reason to kill them, and we decided the game of Thief has always been about avoiding killing, moreso than standard FPS games.

Not necessarily. You can set the objective "Not to kill anyone" like in T1/2 on Expert. Waking after some time would make the gameplay more interesting because you will have to consider what to do with this body. If you're going to spend some time in this area you probably want the guard to be gaged and well hidden but if you're only dropping in some room for one object and quickly coming back - you can leave the body lying on the floor. And when there's no good place to hide and tie the body maybe the best solution is to avoid the guard? So - killing wouldn't be the only alternative. I don't like killing too.

Actually blackjacking in Thief is "clean killing" because unconcious body acts almost like dead man. There is no risk with blackjacking... Thieving should be more anxious and nervous...

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It's in the design docs.

 

The main reason for these ideas is that levels tend to feel dull after everyone has been blackjacked. (Indeed, in the original games, it was too easy for this to happen, and we are taking other measures to aleviate this.)

 

    * Guards can wake up after a certain time

    * Guards can wake up other guards

    * Certain guards can be set to re-spawn the way they do in the City in Thief 3

 

In the end, it was decided that it was too controversial for the thief gameplay at the moment, can be discussed after the first release, and the "empty level" syndrome can be solved at the moment by including AI that can't get knocked out.

 

And "backup" can arrive via a Doom 3 script when it is appropriate for the mission.

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Ok, what's about this:

In TDS, when throwing a flashbomb to a guard, this guard is blinded. When I attack this guard with my blackjack after this, the guard suddenly regains full seeing capabilities again.

For my person, I prefer the T1/T2 style: the gaurd is still blinded when I attack with the blackjack, so I can knockout the guard.

 

Which of the possibilities will you implement?

-> Live long and prosper <-

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Ok, what's about this:

In TDS, when throwing a flashbomb to a guard, this guard is blinded. When I attack this guard with my blackjack after this, the guard suddenly regains full seeing capabilities again.

For my person, I prefer the T1/T2 style: the gaurd is still blinded when I attack with the blackjack, so I can knockout the guard.

 

Which of the possibilities will you implement?

Shit! Really?! Crap, something I oeverlooked in T3. I would definately lean towards the T1 & 2 way.

 

--Dram

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Not necessarily. You can set the objective "Not to kill anyone" like in T1/2 on Expert.

That's not a good idea either, because thief missions aren't inherently tied to the "no kill" objective. So for missions that didn't use it, it would be more worth your while to kill them. And we don't want to force people to implement that objective for all their missions.

 

Ok, what's about this:

In TDS, when throwing a flashbomb to a guard, this guard is blinded. When I attack this guard with my blackjack after this, the guard suddenly regains full seeing capabilities again.

For my person, I prefer the T1/T2 style: the gaurd is still blinded when I attack with the blackjack, so I can knockout the guard.

 

Which of the possibilities will you implement?

We discussed this at great length as well and came up with the following - Spring, I didn't know we were releasing the contents of some of our feature discussions to the public, but while we're at it...

 

[EDIT by Sparhawk] I would prefer NOT to release such info right now. 1) it can still change and 2) we would like to have some surprises. Thanks!

Edited by sparhawk
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levels tend to feel dull after everyone has been blackjacked

I personally enjoy this part of the game. I like knocking out everyone in the level and then spend the remainder of the level hunting for all the loot. If the loot objectives are high enough that it takes a significant amount of time and very careful hunting to find it, then I don't want to have to constantly worry about running into guards. If it didn't, I might get frustrated quicker and decide to either cheat or lower the difficulty setting (nah...I'd never do that :lol: ).

Edited by TazmanianDevil
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