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Since I was bored I played Thief Deadly Shadows again


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#1 Oldjim

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 05:30 AM

The comparision with TDM is not at all favourable
Loot is far too easy to find
Frobbing loot or extinguishing candles takes place way out of reach
Frobbing doors doesn't work if you are a bit out of position (too close or at the wrong angle)
Blackjacking - you need to get far too close
Lock picking is an absolute doddle
Always run is really stupid
Light gem versus being seen is a bit problematical unless it is completely black
Lean doesn't work at all - the guards etc. spotted me every time I tried it
Mantling is very iffy
Picking up an object - it changes to a small icon - sheesh!! and you can't put it down quietly on a normal surface

This is a back handed way of saying thank you to the TDM developers and FM designers
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#2 Lux

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 06:07 AM

Game mechanics for Thief 3 aside, for me it was one of the most enjoyable Thiefs. But then I personally ignore game mechanics, wonky textures, broken whatever, in favor of a good story and I really liked the Thief 3 story and how it evolved. I'm aware that many didn't like the story; it just appealed to me.

The mechanics you speak of I either just avoid or adapt to and accept them as "the way it is" because, well... that's just the way it is, and I wanted to flesh out the story and see what happened in the story.

For me though, story is king, in any game that isn't action based like a normal shooter. If its a normal shooter then player movement and feel along with gun dynamics/animations trumps all else.

Edited by Lux, 21 January 2014 - 06:09 AM.

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#3 Sir Taffsalot

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 06:21 AM

I agree with Lux. While no one can deny that TDS has plenty of flaws, what it lacked in some areas it excelled in others and that been the story. I was able to immerse myself in the brilliant story and atmosphere of TDS to the point that I was almost oblivious to the gameplay bugs.

TDS also gets bonus points for having one of the best levels ever, that being The Cradle. Horror at it's finest.
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#4 demagogue

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 06:34 AM

Considering a major reason for TDM's genesis was responding to perceived shortcomings in TDS, it's interesting to match them side by side and see what TDM actually did differently in its design. Granted the engine worked with us more I think than the nightmare the TDS engine was supposed to be IIRC.

Story is of course not a tech issue but a creative one, and the TDS team definitely had some creative people working on it.
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#5 lowenz

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 06:51 AM

TDS and DXIW are technically a nightmare due to XBOX limitation. Think about level size and loading.
And they are the last Unreal Engine 2.x DX8(.1) games - UT2004 has a DX9 renderer in 64 bit version - so no injection with ENB or SweetFX.

Edited by lowenz, 21 January 2014 - 06:51 AM.

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#6 Goldwell

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 07:56 AM

I really like TDS and I don't understand the dislike people show towards it. My least favorite entry in the Thief series was the 1st one, I mean I really enjoyed the start however it started getting a bit too scary/undead heavy for my liking towards the middle/end and I just stopped enjoying it. My favorite out of all 3 was Thief 2 though, it remains one of my favorite games of all time.

But one thing I wish the Thief series had was TDM's awesome mantling (whenever I boot up a Thief 2 FM I find myself missing that the most as it was not the best in T2) and also the lock picking system,

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#7 Springheel

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:25 PM

I occasionally fire TDS up too...there are lots of things I think TDM does better, but a couple things that TDS is better at:

1. Directional sound. In TDM, I don't have a clear sense (with my 5.1 setup) which direction sounds are coming from. If I really concentrate I can tell the difference if I spin around, but it's not obvious. With TDS, it's VERY clear if a sound is coming from the left or right.

2. Location-specific barks. In TDS, guards will make location-specific comments, like "He's on the stairs", or "He's in the bedroom!". We probably could program something similar using the location system, but don't have the barks for it.

3. AI getting help. Although we have the code for this, I can't recall the last time I saw a civilian AI run and bring back a guard in TDM. This happens in TDS frequently.
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#8 Bikerdude

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 01:04 PM

@All, Beleg Cúthalion is doing an overhaul of TDS so you might want to hold off playing till he is done.

I dropped him a PM and this was his reply -

Evening
I would like to volunteer to beta test this when its ready.

Hi bikerdude,
Sorry for the delay. We are still having some mission transition problems but I'll keep your offer in mind.
Cúthalion



#9 lowenz

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 01:24 PM

@All, Beleg Cúthalion is doing an overhaul of TDS

W-O-W

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#10 AluminumHaste

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 11:14 PM

I liked Thief 3, really enjoyed the story and atmosphere of the games. The lighting was wonderful and while the textures were blurry, low res highly compressed messes, John p fixed most of those issues. Garrett's movement however, was very clunky and blackjacking was not very satisfying.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#11 lowenz

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 02:39 PM

Yeah, DXIW and TDS got world/objects stencil shadows way before Doom3.

Edited by lowenz, 23 January 2014 - 02:42 PM.

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#12 Springheel

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 02:56 PM

TDS was released just 3 months before Doom3.
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#13 AluminumHaste

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 03:37 PM

Doom 3 doesn't use stencil Shadows. It uses true shadow volumes.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#14 HMart

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 07:49 PM

hum...neither doom 3 nor thief 3 brought full real time lighting and stencil shadows to the gaming world, that belongs to a 2001 game called Severance Blade of Darkness (edge of darkness in US i think), doom 3 was indeed the one that made it cool.

And AluminumHaste afaik Stencil Shadows and Shadow volumes are different names for the exact same thing, for example the marketing in the days for Severance talked about Volumetric lighting and Volumetric Shadows, Carmack just found a new way (after Creative add already patented it) to create them that was better and faster, but in essence in this shadow method you are extruding the game object polygons edges in a volume and creating a polygon silhouette in the floor to represent the shadow, that's why making a low rez shadow mesh is used has a optimization trick in Doom3.

#15 nbohr1more

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 10:23 PM

Severance was indeed a trail-blazer for realtime lighting. However it was "per vertex" rather than "per pixel" and also
did not have normal maps. Mobile games these days often use "per vertex lighting with normal maps" which works by interpolating
the shading then applying the normal variance. It's fairly effective and might've been a little easier route to go when
Doom 3 came out but per pixel definitely looks better.
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#16 The Black Arrow

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 03:25 AM

Thief 3, it uses a DX8 engine that UT2004 engine, albeit heavily modified (and glitchier than the default/vanilla UT2004 one), but it was very impressive. The textures looked blurry, but they had some very nice bump mapping. The models were like a combination of trying to make it smooth and blocky, which somehow worked and it sure was nice. The lightning is too obvious to mention, it was great indeed.

But the gameplay itself could have been better, as in less buggy and glitchy. Garrett's movements are twitchy, blackjacking is only possible if Garrett has his Blackjack ready to strike, the knife is completely useless in comparison to the sword, etc.

I know it is stereotypically rare to see a thief with a sword, but Garrett is not just a thief, he also raids strange places like tombs, sunken cities and the like, so a sword is more useful than a dagger.

I still wonder which engine is actually better, Doom3 Engine or UT2004 Engine? I'm gonna guess Doom 3, it always seemed to be more stable than the other.

Edited by The Black Arrow, 25 January 2014 - 03:25 AM.

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#17 Matoro

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 01:28 PM

I really like the mini-hub areas in TDS, especially when you try breaking the game and starting a war on the streets with the Pagans, Hammers, Thugs, and Guards! It is so funny!
Additionally, I liked in TDS is that moss arrows are actually useful against NPCs! If you shoot a moss arrow in the NPC's mouth, they'll start choking on it for a little while. Something I wish TDM would implement. xD

There are some funny moments here and there that kinda breaks the game, but in a good way.

Edited by Matoro, 27 January 2014 - 01:32 PM.


#18 New Horizon

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 02:59 PM

The over the top humor in Deadly Shadows wasn't very popular with most of us. The 'choking' on moss was a type of humor we chose to avoid, as well as slipping on oil. If anything, those poor guards would have died from getting moss in the mouth...as it would have grown down their throats and into their lungs.

Sorry, it's highly unlikely you'll ever see something like that in TDM
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#19 lost_soul

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 03:17 PM

I too had a lot of fun playing as "Garrett the menace". I would make guards slip into the water, or slip onto flaming oil (ignite the oil puddles with a fire arrow!). I also enjoyed causing chaos in the city sections of the game, trying to start the largest fight I was able to. I would get the guards, the hammers, and the thugs involved. It was even more fun near the end of the game with those giant "you know whats" roaming around the city sections.

Edited by lost_soul, 27 January 2014 - 03:20 PM.

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#20 Springheel

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 04:02 PM

Yeah, that kind of slapstick humour is fun, but not really in keeping with the feel of TDM. Would make a good humorous mission though.
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#21 Obsttorte

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 03:28 PM

@All, Beleg Cúthalion is doing an overhaul of TDS so you might want to hold off playing till he is done.

The keyword for me is merged

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#22 Markus

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:57 AM

So lets hope Thief 4 will be a decent sequel, although it will be a console port...

#23 Springheel

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:16 AM

So lets hope Thief 4 will be a decent sequel


You haven't been reading up on it have you.
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#24 lowenz

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:26 PM

LOL. Maybe the whole world is wrong about :v

Edited by lowenz, 29 January 2014 - 12:27 PM.

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.


#25 Goldwell

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:58 PM

I may be the only one on these boards willing to buy it and try it day one :P

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