158 replies to this topic

[Bikerdude]

Regarding statues: I've placed them correctly, but the gate didn't open.

got a video as no one else of the large beta group had this issue.

[161803398874989]

Sign me up for that bug as well. I placed the golden statuette several times before the thing responded.

[Goldchocobo]

If you place a statue, but then need to place it again (due to it being out of order) you need to take it healthily out of the trigger zone, otherwise it won't re trigger. You are likely experiencing that.

[Obsttorte]

got a video as no one else of the large beta group had this issue.

Will take a look at the map tomorrow and tell you what you've done wrong

It's not a big deal as the triggers are actually working (at least there is some sound played),but they are firing several times it seems.

[RJFerret]

I had the same experience with the statues when I whipped through it last night. Such that I went off to see if something had opened up elsewhere before returning, lifting and dropping them in place yet again and voilà. (Note, on every placement there was a positive feedback sound.) So my guess is something off on the trigger count logic.

Edited by RJFerret, 31 January 2014 - 05:31 PM.

[RJFerret]

Ah, nope, not exactly...but the apparent feedback is like that.

Spoiler

There's a prerequisite not apparent to the player. So it's appears a random result, but really it's caused by the sequence of placement.

[Obsttorte]

Just took a look and it behaves the following way:

Spoiler

• The black statue always yields the desired effect
• the white statue requires the black one to be in place
• the golden one requires the white and the black one to be in place

I can understand the logic behind that, but it appears TDM doesn't always , so that

Spoiler

setting up the statues in a different order (like I did, I placed the golden one first)

causes the effect not to work properly. If you ever make an update it would be better

Spoiler

to bundle those three objectives into one and connect them with AND (success logic).

Just my two cents.

[Lux]

Spoiler

I noticed the statues as well. I put the gold one in place because you find it right there, then the white and then lastly the black one. The black one made a noise which made me feel as though I'd triggered something but the gates didn't go down. I searched up and down the haunted tunnel looking for a passage that opened but couldn't find one.

Then I went back and messed with the statues. Changed the order to every other possible combination. Originally I put the gold one up first and nothing happened. The last placed black one was the only one that made a sound. gold-white-black was order placement.

Turns out the black made a noise because it was the last of 3 and it was placed 3rd.

So I removed them all and placed just the 1st white one, THEN I got a sound! Then the gold which made a sound, then the black which opened the gates. So yeah the order of placement must be correct, 1-2-3 or else it doesn't work. At least for me that was how it worked.

Edited by Lux, 01 February 2014 - 06:59 AM.

[Lux]

Spoiler

• the white statue requires the black one to be in place
• the golden one requires the white and the black one to be in place

I got nothing if I placed the black then the white. Placing the Black first would not make any noise.

Gold only required me to have the White in place to trigger the sound file.

[161803398874989]

Lux,

Spoiler

That's because you completed the black statue objective already. Your findings don't contradict Obs' hypothesis.

[Lux]

16180,

Spoiler

Not sure what you mean by, "completed the black statue objective already". The only configuration I could get to work was White, Gold, Black from left to right.

I don't think there was/is anything wrong with the current mechanic personally. Place them from left to right, ending with black. I think having a functioning order of placement is fine and part of the puzzle.

It felt to me in-game that the mechanic worked like it should and wasn't broken? I don't think you should be able to willy nilly put the statues up in any order? I like the way it works currently, it adds more puzzle to it.

There isn't an issue is what I'm saying. That doesn't contradict stating there's an issue? Nothing against Obsttorte of course, I tried to explain the mechanic in the way I thought it worked because initially I thought it was broken as well but as it turned out, placing them in the correct order "seemed" intended.

Apologies for the confusion.

Edited by Lux, 01 February 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Bikerdude]

There seems an awefull lot of discusion for something so simple and its just filling this page of the thread

Spoiler

black statue goes on black plinth (right)
white statue goes on white plinth, (left)
gold statue goes on gold plinth, (middle)

[RJFerret]

Spoiler

Obs said the same thing I did, because we both looked at the way it is set up in Dark Radiant (editor), Obs just gave more specifics than I did, but his info is not a hypothesis.

It's working as designed, it's not broken, it's just unclear and counter-intuitive for multiple reasons. (There's little to indicate to the player that sequence matters. The foreshadowing tells the player the exact opposite, as sequence doesn't matter in the previous placement "puzzle". The only indication is in the wording of the readable, which may be inferred multiple ways.)

Changing the design to be AND logic would make it redundant to the previous, whereas I believe the intent was for it to be more challenging. Since it's counter-intuitive that placing objects on separate surfaces matters which order they are placed, it's important to demonstrate to players that there's something that responds in an unrealistic fashion.

I'd introduce a new puzzle, based purely on sequence, to convey to the player that sequence might matter, and put that concept in their head. A keypad on the door that accesses the room would not fit the theme, but there is space with the existing geometry to place two more mock doors on either side of the door, and make it so you have to access the doors in the same order as the player should place the statues, to get the main door to open.

Then the player will have been exposed to the idea of placing objects without sequence beforehand, doing something where sequence matters, then a more blatant readable will help bring it all together.

[grayman]

There seems an awefull lot of discusion for something so simple and its just filling this page of the thread

One should never assume that players come to the same conclusion as designers: that something is simple (or hard). The customer is always right. Otherwise we wouldn't bother with beta testing.

[RJFerret]

...so simple...

Or not. ;-)

We all do it, we know how we want something to work, so we can't become ignorant again to judge it objectively, and realize if it has become counter-intuitive--because it's part of our intuition!

Spoiler

The result is it appears broken, not because it technically is, but because the result doesn't match the established expectations.

Edit: I see a ninja!

Edited by RJFerret, 01 February 2014 - 10:22 AM.

[Bikerdude]

Ok apologies to the players, but the way I saw it is if one of my beta testers who is colour blind got it reletivly easily I assumed normal player would aswell.

[RJFerret]

Ok apologies to the players, but the way I saw it is if one of my beta testers who is colour blind got it reletivly easily I assumed normal player would aswell.

Erm, it has absolutely nothing to do with color. *points up to all the discussion of an entirely different aspect.

[grayman]

Ok apologies to the players, but the way I saw it is if one of my beta testers who is colour blind got it reletivly easily I assumed normal player would aswell.

Well said. But he might be more spatially astute than, say, me. I spent 20 minutes solving that puzzle, and when the gate finally went up, I had no idea why.

Spoiler

The requirement that like should sit on like was easy. The requirement that there was a correct sequence was easy. But what messes with simplicity is when there's a difference between what the player can see and what he can't see. I could see that the statue was sitting on the pedestal and when it wasn't. What I couldn't see was that when I lifted the statue off the pedestal, the code considered it to still be sitting on the pedestal, because it was inside the location volume (which, for gold, is 3x higher than for the others), whereas my eyes were telling me it was off.

And when the black statue was placed, it always triggered a sound, regardless of where the white and gold statues were, which confused me.

We're all going to react differently, and I don't expect puzzles to be simple. But this one confused me, because I felt that I solved it accidently.

[Obsttorte]

@Bikerdude: It seems you've missed the point.

Spoiler

The problem is not where to place the statues, this is crystal clear.

The problem is that there is no information about the fact that it plays a role in which order (time-wise) the statues have to be placed. As you keep misunderstanding this it seems to me that this was not intented.

[Lux]

I guess I didn't have that issue because when I place something I place it. Let go of it. If you pick it back up at that point it goes back in your inventory so its out of any bounding box.

Waving the object over an area or similar would not let the pedestal base 'react' to the idols weight, which is why I sat them down on the pedestals.

In any case, I guess confusing for some. Bikerdude, why are you apologizing? Clearly you're not at fault in any event. If people want it changed, change it. Some are happy with it, no apology required!

[Lux]

@Obsttorte

Spoiler

The plaque at the foot of the pedestals begins, "Seated in the order of greatness..."

[Oldjim]

I just tried it again and I found that it works correctly if you have the correct sequence

Spoiler

Black on black plinth - sound
White on white plinth - sound
Gold on gold plinth - sound and worked
I didn't find a hint in one of the readables as to which is the greater white or black

Edited by Oldjim, 01 February 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[Loa4ever]

I finished the mission, like it . I keep myself saying, eventually I will fight a zombie, right? right? XD. The last part of the lava was the difficult part not because of the difficulty, but because of error and tries but eventually I made it.

Keep on good work on making missions, if you are thinking on doing it more.

[grayman]

Spoiler

Waving the object over an area or similar would not let the pedestal base 'react' to the idols weight, which is why I sat them down on the pedestals.

It does in this case, however. The statue just has to be near the top of the pedestal to be considered on it. It's not a touching or weight puzzle; it's a nearness puzzle.

[Lux]

@grayman

Yes I agree it is. I was just saying I didn't treat it that way initially which was why I didn't have the issue.