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A new way of looking at Thief 4


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#1 Springheel

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:02 PM

I was thinking today...

How many people enjoyed TDS? It wasn't my favourite Thief by far, and I had lots of problems with it, but I still enjoyed it.

I wasn't around for most of the discussions before the game was released, but I imagine the responses from fans and reviewers leading up to its release would have been pretty similar to what we're seeing now from Thief 4...tons of complaining about loss of swimable water, no rope arrows, small levels, etc.

TDS was buggy, clunky, and inferior to the original games in most ways...but it was still fun, had moments of brilliance (cradle), and it still ranks up there as one of my favourite games.

I'm willing to accept that Thief 4 might be the same.

That is all.

:)
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#2 Airship Ballet

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:17 PM

People pre-emptively slammed Heath Ledger as being completely unfitting as The Joker because he didn't resemble their preconception of the character. Look at how that turned out.
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#3 New Horizon

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:30 PM

I thought Ledger was a brilliant choice right from the start, not that it validates my feelings of the new Thief. For me I think the loss of Stephen Russell was the breaking point. After that I just stopped caring. I wish I didn't feel that way but with so much else going on in the world and life in general, what EM does with the Thief series is all but a blip on my radar.

#4 jtr7

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:31 PM

.............

Edited by jtr7, 19 February 2014 - 07:50 AM.

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I hope that something better comes along.

#5 Springheel

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:41 PM

Sure, I can respect the position of voting with your wallet. And there are plenty of things about the new Thief that I don't especially like. But I can say the same thing about TDS.
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#6 Goldwell

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:48 PM

For myself I have had my days where I thought positively about the game.. and negatively. Overall though as we move closer to release day and my pre-ordered copy awaits activation I feel cautiously excited to play.

I don't want to hype the game up but I also don't want to play it down, if this game is successful it will be great the the Thief community as a whole and also I think towards this mod. We will always have that really amazing experience of legacy with Thief1/2/3 and of course TDM but it is nice to change things up a bit and thats what they've done with Thief 4.

I was watching a video the other day just after playing some of the older games and after constantly being stuck and getting frustrated with rope arrows i'm actually sort of glad they did the contextual thing. I don't know if you guys remember but in Thief 2 mantling was fucking horrible, I mean I would try to quietly get inside a window and miss it then basically jump up and down and make a massive noise and damn that drove me insane. Rope arrows were a pain in the ass, you had to get the angle right and if you missed you had to climb back down and shoot again, and even then things were quite awkward.

I don't agree with their light gem changes though and the shroud is rather annoying but it's a sacrifice as a consumer i'm willing to make.

So to summarize, it's nice to see things go in a new and exciting direction and I think we are fortunate enough to have the legacy style continue through TDM. It's like we are having our cake and eating it too ;)

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#7 Nacht7

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:33 PM

It looks like it'll be a game the studio will hopefully learn from.
It'll have many flaws, story most likely being chief among them, but I have the feeling it will also be a good game in it's own right.
To this day, I will still defend Thief: Deadly Shadows to death as being one of my favorite games of all time, as well as my personal favorite in the series. It's flawed, sure, but it's flawed in a sort of charming way and you can understand why it is the way it is due to it's hectic development. I cannot bring myself to look at the new Thief game the same due to some asinine decisions made by the development team, primarily that of kicking Stephen Russell to the curb in favor of an inferior actor. No matter, I will still be looking at the game objectively, without bias.

If this game is good, then I will sing it's praises to the world. Though, I have no doubt in my mind that it will be without flaws. Considering that, I say we should try to enjoy the game for what it is, giving notice to the things we liked or even loved, but still bringing attention to the things that weren't good, so that way, the following game won't make the same mistakes.

Here's to hoping Thief is a good game, and also to hoping that Thief 2 will surely remedy any and all problems we may have.

EDIT: Also, just to clarify, I'm still not buying this game. I'm going to rent it and see if it justifies a full retail purchase.

Edited by Nacht7, 12 February 2014 - 10:35 PM.


#8 Obsttorte

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:23 PM

As I am german, Stephen Russell never was a problem for me :P

What hurts me the most about TDS was that there was no synchronization. From the last video I've seen they have synchronized the new thief, which is definetely a plus.

Personally I have no particular problems with gameplay changes. I don't neccessarely need to jump in a game to have fun for example. But what itched me all the time was the feeling I've got that those changes seem to have the reason to make this game more appealing to a broader audience, which I consider bad in genereal and has nothing to do with the thief series in special. This also has taken place with the Raven Shield and Splinter Cell series. Even the latter of those where enjoyable, but not as challenging as the earlier games were, which is a shame.

Whether I buy it or not comes down on whether it uses steam or similar. If so, I don't buy it, elsewhile I am willing to give it a chance. (Even if just for inspiring myself, as the level architecture seems very good to me).
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#9 Nacht7

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:29 PM

As I am german, Stephen Russell never was a problem for me :P


Aye, as am I.
Still, I always played English variations of the game, so Stephen Russell was my introduction to Garrett, as well as over half the other characters in the game whom he voiced.

Edited by Nacht7, 12 February 2014 - 11:29 PM.


#10 AluminumHaste

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:11 AM

Yeah I can dig that Springheel. Aside from story, TDM is better than TDS in every way.
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#11 Maijstral

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:21 AM

For me I think the loss of Stephen Russell was the breaking point. After that I just stopped caring.


The loss of Stephen Russell was almost the breaking point for me. As long as SR is able to voice Garrett, he should be voicing Garrett. It's not helping that Orzari's Garrett voice reminds me of Steve Buscemi. Loss of SR combined with the loss of Hammerites and Pagans pushed me over the edge. I probably would have put up with the inferior controls and bought the game if SR had returned or if the lore hadn't been gutted.

Edited by Maijstral, 13 February 2014 - 02:27 AM.

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#12 Sir Taffsalot

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:24 AM

That's pretty much how I felt about Thief 4 right from the start and I still do. I can still play TG whenever I want to. Plus there's the huge library of Thief FMs still out there, half of which I still haven't played yet. And of course TDM isn't going anywhere. So even if Thief 4 is horrible I'm not going to loose anything. The way I look at it I've got nothing to loose but everything to gain.
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#13 vvGarrettvv

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:15 AM

That's pretty much how I felt about Thief 4 right from the start and I still do. I can still play TG whenever I want to. Plus there's the huge library of Thief FMs still out there, half of which I still haven't played yet. And of course TDM isn't going anywhere. So even if Thief 4 is horrible I'm not going to loose anything. The way I look at it I've got nothing to loose but everything to gain.


100% agreed

regarding the voice-acting: I bought the german versions, which were one of the better german syncronisations in gaming history. Most of the german translations are awful (ok...Portal 2 war great.too ). But this one was great.
I heard Stephens voice a few years later and love his voice acting. His voice and the Garrett- avatar are a perfect symbiosys. Cynic, sarcastic.....unique.
But what really p++++s m+ o++ (censored by the autor B) ) is, that Sqeenix changes almost everything in T4. I`m not talking about cosmetics or little improvements. They scraped the thief universe and rebuilt a 08/15 consumer-friendly flatliner-game. The story would fit on a beermat and is as much of an interest as it is a Duden from 1961 :wacko:.
So it`s only a 19.-€ buy for me. After I play it through ( 5-6 hours in max.) I will immidiately start TDM as a course of treatment. :D

Edited by vvGarrettvv, 13 February 2014 - 03:16 AM.


#14 Subjective Effect

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:26 AM

Historically, this has been far worse than the complaints over TDS


Yeah, the complaints over TDS were a drop in the ocean compared to this.

But when they change everything about the game, throw out things people love about the originals (e.g. SR) and then half-heartedly bring back things we missed in TDS (rope arrows) and give bs reasons for all this - lip synching, that rambling nonsense about the rope arrows - what can you expect.

It's been a PR disaster, even with the removal of XP, 3rd person and QTEs.

We have to accept that Thief as we knew it (Thief 1 and 2) is dead. It lives on only in spirit, in TDM. Trends and commercial pressure mean that only a risk taking studio, like an indie studio, would ever use the Thief IP to create a Thief that harks back to the originals. But that IP is too valuable now so... It's sad, but it's reality. Tbh, the existence of TDM really softens that blow for me. That and the fact that I think we're in a golden age of indie games and arty games and I'm loving that so much that the loss of a true Thief is easier to take.
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#15 Lux

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:34 AM

I still think they should have went with the "Sherlock Holmes" IP for this game. More action (expected based on the movies) and definitely more in line with that series. Plus it would have been the "1st" game in the series which always attracks people to check it out in droves, and they wouldn't have offended fans of any other game.

That being said, I'm going to play through with Sherlock Holmes in mind moreso than I would the previous Thief titles. Maybe that will aid the break in continuity.
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#16 Goldwell

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:38 AM

Yeah, the complaints over TDS were a drop in the ocean compared to this.

But when they change everything about the game, throw out things people love about the originals (e.g. SR) and then half-heartedly bring back things we missed in TDS (rope arrows) and give bs reasons for all this - lip synching, that rambling nonsense about the rope arrows - what can you expect.

It's been a PR disaster, even with the removal of XP, 3rd person and QTEs.

We have to accept that Thief as we knew it (Thief 1 and 2) is dead. It lives on only in spirit, in TDM. Trends and commercial pressure mean that only a risk taking studio, like an indie studio, would ever use the Thief IP to create a Thief that harks back to the originals. But that IP is too valuable now so... It's sad, but it's reality. Tbh, the existence of TDM really softens that blow for me. That and the fact that I think we're in a golden age of indie games and arty games and I'm loving that so much that the loss of a true Thief is easier to take.


I'm curious do you honestly believe that how rope arrows were implemented before was ok? They were so annoying and horrible to use, getting stuck in awkward places because they just stuck into anything was not an ideal situation.

I know we all hate a game feeling like its stuck on rails but things like ladders/ropes being stuck on rails is perfectly fine by me. When rope arrows work yeah its great but most of the time they do not. Also ladders are annoying to come off of without clambering into the ground and make large amounts of noise.

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#17 vvGarrettvv

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:51 AM

I'm curious do you honestly believe that how rope arrows were implemented before was ok? They were so annoying and horrible to use, getting stuck in awkward places because they just stuck into anything was not an ideal situation.

I know we all hate a game feeling like its stuck on rails but things like ladders/ropes being stuck on rails is perfectly fine by me. When rope arrows work yeah its great but most of the time they do not. Also ladders are annoying to come off of without clambering into the ground and make large amounts of noise.


Today it would be possible optimizing the ladder climbing and all the noise stuff without kiling the whole gameplay
Experimenting with the arrows, which one works on the appropriate surface and in which situation, was one of the highlights of T1/2.

Today the gamer will be guided `to the death `. That`s boring and a athmosphere-killer par excellence.

#18 Goldwell

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:40 AM

Today it would be possible optimizing the ladder climbing and all the noise stuff without kiling the whole gameplay
Experimenting with the arrows, which one works on the appropriate surface and in which situation, was one of the highlights of T1/2.

Today the gamer will be guided `to the death `. That`s boring and a athmosphere-killer par excellence.


I agree that the guided to death experience is a mood/atmosphere killer however I think that things like ladders and rope arrows are acceptable to be controlled by the game. As long as I can look left and right to keep an eye out for guards and control when I get on/off that's fine by me because the old way of things never worked out.

I love the exploration aspect but the bugginess really is something terrible, I haven't played Thief yet but from the videos it seems like they have handled it appropriately.. in that they handle the getting on/off part of a rope arrow/ladder and you can control everything else. This to me feels positive... they have removed the shitty aspect of climbing up/down from rope arrows/ladders and made it good again.

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#19 STiFU

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 07:55 AM

Even if the game sucks, it will still be very enjoyable visually and a good inspiration to many of us. I will buy it for sure! :)

#20 Xarg

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:11 AM

Speaking of good inspiration (I assume you mean visually), Amnesia Machine for pigs has some lovely building interiors in the first 2 levels, then some outdoor and mechanical stuff shortly after. Once I play through the game properly, I'll be revisiting with my screenshot key ready to bathe in the experience.
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#21 Subjective Effect

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:42 AM

I'm curious do you honestly believe that how rope arrows were implemented before was ok?

Yep.

It's not perfect because you can't swing on them and they don't drape (unlike in TDM) but the fact you can use them to explore and maybe get lost or trapped? That's awesome.
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#22 Deadlove

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:47 AM

One of the things about Thief that I liked a lot was that Garrett only stole the run of the mill expected things for a thief to steal for perhaps the first couple missions before the plot started to unfold, and then the thieving was based around objectives to further the plot...and new and exciting things that I didn't expect to be stealing, I was! Of course the extra loot in the mission was for buying things in between missions.

The new game seems a bit like it's Garrett stealing just to steal, their marketing it with for the challenge, etc.

The old games it felt more like Garrett is like "oh no, not this again, I'd rather just be stealing a sceptor, but I have to play hero and do some wild work I'd never take on otherwise...can't I just be left alone?"

One of the most appealling traits to me was that Garrett was an anti-hero, the new Garrett seems to basque in his thieving glory.

Edited by Deadlove, 13 February 2014 - 09:48 AM.

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#23 Subjective Effect

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:32 AM

The original Garrett is bad bad man. He's a Thief and he steals. He's not a Robin Hood character at all. He steals stuff for fences. They'll sell them on to other rich people who can afford them. Later on Garrett might end up stealing from the same people his fence sold stuff to. It's all about the fence and Garrett making money. There is no honour in it.

That's what makes him such a good character.
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#24 Springheel

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:53 AM

I think the great thing about his character is that there's ambiguity there. If you want to see Garrett as an anti-hero with principles, you can. If you want to see him as an unscrupulous "bad man" you can. There's lots of evidence to support both. Players will make him into whatever they're most comfortable with within those boundaries.
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#25 skacky

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:58 AM

Yes, exactly. Garrett is a knave in the previous games and will steal from the rich and the poor alike, without distinction as long as he gets the money. He will not kill only because it would make him look unprofessional, but I doubt we wouldn't if he didn't care about his reputation. If anything Garrett looks to be more like a savior than the previous games this time, especially when you listen to Basso.




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