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Huh? Now where'd that go? (Picking pockets)


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#51 New Horizon

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:58 AM

This is what early onset Alzheimer's looks like, folks. :wacko:


:laugh: Well, lets hope not. I've had moments like that too.

#52 Springheel

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:31 AM

Generally sounds good...just want to jot down an idea before I head out the door--what about if the AI is alerted within X seconds of the pickpocket, there is a more serious reaction? That would probably mean the player was partially spotted while trying to steal the object, which is punishable behaviour. In that case the AI could react more quickly or become more alert or something. More thoughts later.
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#53 grayman

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 12:05 PM

Generally sounds good...just want to jot down an idea before I head out the door--what about if the AI is alerted within X seconds of the pickpocket, there is a more serious reaction? That would probably mean the player was partially spotted while trying to steal the object, which is punishable behaviour. In that case the AI could react more quickly or become more alert or something. More thoughts later.


Whether to invoke the reaction or not is decided after the delay is finished. If the AI has raised his alert level for a different reason in the meantime, it may or may not affect his pickpocket reaction, based on what's in the proposal.

#54 RJFerret

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 12:28 PM

I like it.
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#55 Springheel

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 01:47 PM

What I meant was (in addition to grayman's proposal) that we punish the player for making a sloppy pickpocket attempt. If they are really proficient, the AI will never know they're there. If they make a serious noise or are seen, the regular AI behaviour is appropriate. But currently if they only make a small noise, enough to sent an AI to alert 1 or 2, they can still make the pickpocket without much risk.

I'm proposing that if the AI is currently idle, and they are alerted by noise/sight/touch within two seconds of the pickpocket occuring, they immediately check to see if they notice the missing object. If they do, then they play their bark, look around, and add the event to their evidence of an intruder log. This seems like a realistic response for AI to have...if the player makes a bit of noise while stealing their purse, they're more likely to check and notice, and even though they might wonder if they dropped it, the fact that it happened around a suspicious stimuli is likely to make them more suspicious in the future. The bark doesn't have to interrupt the regular ramp up/down barks. So the player swipes a purse, makes a bit of noise backing away, and the AI says, "Hmm? A noise?" They then immediately run their pickpocket check, notice the missing object, and a second later say, "Hey, did I drop that?" After a few more seconds they say, "Don't hear anything now." and go back to their patrol, but just a little more suspicious than before.


One possible wrench is how to establish whether the AI was alerted two seconds before the pickpocket occurs...I don't know if that info is available.
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#56 Deadlove

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:28 PM

I still am avid on the reaction being random (25%-35/40% of the time), so the player doesn't get used to the reaction.

It will throw the player through the loop wondering "will this guard notice I swiped something this time?" versus "every guard will react a certain way 100% of time if I swipe something" (as long as nothing else is going on for the AI).

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#57 grayman

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:45 PM

... within two seconds of the pickpocket occuring ...
... So the player swipes a purse, makes a bit of noise backing away...
... whether the AI was alerted two seconds before the pickpocket occurs ...


So the 2 second window is both before and after the pickpocket, making a 4 second window total?

We can track any times we want.

#58 grayman

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:54 PM

I still am avid on the reaction being random (25%-35/40% of the time), so the player doesn't get used to the reaction.


I assume you're referring to this step:

2. The code checks the victim's "chanceNoticePickedPocket" spawnarg (0.00 -> 1.00, default 0.50). A value of 0.0 means this victim never reacts to the theft. This lets mappers use custom reactions or no reactions. Since the chance value is compared to a random number, and it's only compared once, if it fails, the victim won't react.


That step says there's a 50% chance of the victim reacting, by default.

Is this where you'd want to use 25%, 35%, or 40% instead?

The default would be 50%, but the mapper can set it to whatever he wants, per AI. Does that satisfy your request?

#59 Springheel

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:57 PM

So the 2 second window is both before and after the pickpocket, making a 4 second window total?


I'm not married to those values...we'd just want to make sure that it's a small enough window that any alert during that time can reasonably be assumed to be due to the pickpocket attempt.
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#60 Lux

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:58 PM

[...] However I also think that the type of AI and/or loot should have an impact, a random civillian losing his purse might think he just left it at home, but a noblemans guard losing a key might get into serious trouble for that and thus as a severe motivation to find it again.


The zig-zagging and barks could reflect this too.

"The Watch Captain is going to have my ass for this"
"I'm going to get drawn and quartered for this...where IS IT?!"
"TAFF IT! He gives me one job...one job...hang on to the key... he trusted me with the key... now I've lost it... I'm finished, I may as well turn in my papers..."

#61 Lux

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:02 PM

This is what early onset Alzheimer's looks like, folks. :wacko:


Hahaha... we all do that. I mean.. don't we all do that? ...I mean..
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#62 Deadlove

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:06 PM

I assume you're referring to this step:



That step says there's a 50% chance of the victim reacting, by default.

Is this where you'd want to use 25%, 35%, or 40% instead?

The default would be 50%, but the mapper can set it to whatever he wants, per AI. Does that satisfy your request?


Yes, brilliant! Thanks for clearing that up, I learn a lot by reading all the code talk mumbo jumbo, but sometimes it makes my head spin and I just can't understand it for the life of me.

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#63 Lux

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:07 PM

I assume you're referring to this step: That step says there's a 50% chance of the victim reacting, by default. Is this where you'd want to use 25%, 35%, or 40% instead? The default would be 50%, but the mapper can set it to whatever he wants, per AI. Does that satisfy your request?


I think its gREAt that we have an excellent random default behavior. If the mapper doesn't need to do aNYTHINg to it that would be great. One less thing to think about. AI would handle most situations on their own. Having it customizable still allows the mappers to do whatever they want.

But a core, good, random array of actions/barks is definitely for the better. It will make us amateur mappers look better and the AI more of a joy to be around in general. Pro mappers can always play around within the bounds and exceed expectations.

#64 grayman

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:10 PM

The zig-zagging and barks could reflect this too.


Zig-zagging back across the path isn't going to happen, because pathing requires goal locations, which requires knowledge of the area and the ability to construct an ad-hoc path, which would require a ton of work. The closest we get now to ad-hoc pathing is the act of searching, which requires a lot of preparation.

I also wouldn't want to send an AI back to his previous path corner, because that could very well be on the far side of the map.

And I wouldn't employ the current search behavior for this, because that's designed for seeking out the player, including appropriate barks, drawn weapons, warnings to friends, etc. that would be inappropriate in the hunt for a lost item.

#65 Lux

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:12 PM

the act of searching, which requires a lot of preparation.


Couldn't this be reused just with a different alert target/state/barks?

Edited by Lux, 18 March 2014 - 03:12 PM.


#66 Springheel

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:15 PM

If we can compromise with a random 10s -> 2m delay, then it will allow the player to witness the response at least some of the time.


Reading through the rest of it in detail all sounds good to me. I think the delay above is reasonable.
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#67 grayman

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:29 PM

I'm not married to those values...we'd just want to make sure that it's a small enough window that any alert during that time can reasonably be assumed to be due to the pickpocket attempt.


Pls look at the new Step 2 in the proposal (in red) and see if the behavior is what you're after.

#68 Springheel

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:34 PM

Yes, that captures that part of it.

The other component was the AI filing it as a suspicious event, about the same as if they noticed a suspicious light out. This would only happen if #2 is true.
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#69 grayman

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:36 PM

Couldn't this be reused just with a different alert target/state/barks?


Not without a lot of work. A search focuses on spots where the player might hide (not applicable), encourages searchers to warn friends that something's amiss (not applicable), asks that others help search (not applicable), can have an impact on the stealth score (not applicable), and employs barks designed for the type of search (agitated searching or regular searching).

Overloading the current search algorithm to also handle lost items would require stitching a different behavior throughout all the search code.

The way to approach it, if we did, is to make a copy of the search code, rip out the inappropriate bits, and plug in appropriate bits.

This is way more than I was planning to do.

#70 Springheel

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:45 PM

I don't think any more than a general, "look at spot x" reaction is warranted.
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#71 grayman

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 04:30 PM

The other component was the AI filing it as a suspicious event, about the same as if they noticed a suspicious light out. This would only happen if #2 is true.


Added in red to Step 5.

#72 RJFerret

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 05:56 PM

If the AI is in the middle of his reaction, here's how he'll respond when other things happen:


Not listed, door opens/closes without explanation? Presumably needs to pay attention to that, or opens an exploit for players to pick a pocket right before manipulating a door.

I don't think any more than a general, "look at spot x" reaction is warranted.


Even that might be excessive. If I notice something is missing, I don't look behind me or at the ground unless I hear a noise associated with it. I think it dropped by the driver's seat of my car (typical), or I left it on my dresser at home.
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#73 grayman

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 06:05 PM

Not listed, door opens/closes without explanation? Presumably needs to pay attention to that, or opens an exploit for players to pick a pocket right before manipulating a door.


Yeah, that falls into the "anything else I can think of later" category.

#74 RJFerret

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 06:14 PM

Yeah, that falls into the "anything else I can think of later" category.


*nods, just trying to alleviate your need to think of yet another thing...you know, with that Alzheimer's onset and all... ;p
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#75 grayman

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 06:24 PM

*nods, just trying to alleviate your need to think of yet another thing...you know, with that Alzheimer's onset and all... ;p


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