Huh? Now where'd that go? (Picking pockets)

[Springheel]

As specified, nobody gets penalized.

 

I interpret the rules as currently written that every time an AI notices a missing item, "Whether an alert increment is applied or not, his "evidence of intruders" count will bump up by 1." That means even if the player makes a clean pickpocket, the AI becomes more suspicious.

 

Am I reading this wrong?

 

We cannot either bend female arms or we simply don't care about broken elbows.

 

I'm not quite sure what's going on there. The elbows don't bend like that with our existing animations, do they?

[Sotha]

I'm not quite sure what's going on there. The elbows don't bend like that with our existing animations, do they?

 

I have not studied the existing anims, but I have no clear recollection of spotting elbow-anomalies in existing animations.

 

However, the existing animations do not have this kind of strong bending. The anims we already have never bend the elbow more than 90 degrees. That is probably why it has not been spotted.

All the characters that have thin arms seem to suffer from this: females and the zombie.

 

I do not have the expertise to know what is the reason. I asked about it in the past and Arcturus said

For some reason there are 3 bones in the arm. I don't know why there's this elbow bone.

http://forums.thedar...post__p__334417

 

That is all I know. Arcturus' comment makes it sound like a model issue.

[Springheel]

However, the existing animations do not have this kind of strong bending. The anims we already have never bend the elbow more than 90 degrees. That is probably why it has not been spotted.

 

I know there certainly are animations that bend the elbow more than that...at least one of the stretching animations does, so does ponder and I suspect several others. Whether the female characters use these by default or not I don't know, but you could still play one manually and see what it looks like. If they look just as bad then it's a model issue that will need fixing. Elbows and shoulders are the bane of my weighting existence, so it's certain possible that's where the problem lies.

 

But it's also possible that the third bone is there to help with the deformation and needs to be used in a particular way during animations.

[Sotha]

it's also possible that the third bone is there to help with the deformation and needs to be used in a particular way during animations.

 

Yep, the elbow bone "RightArmRoll" is the one I tried in the anims to improve the anim, but the result was -as I showed- poor.

 

I inspected the "idle_ponder" and indeed you are right. The elbow looks just fine in there!

 

I have no clue how that was accomplished. If I try to do the same, I end up with distorted elbows.

[grayman]

Latest proposal. Changes from last draft are in blue.

 

1. Player steals item. If the victim's "chanceNoticePickedPocket" spawnarg is "0", he won't react. (This lets mappers use custom reactions or no reactions.) If > 0, he might.

 

2. Wait 2 seconds. Then, if the victim was alerted in the previous 4 seconds, and if his current alert level is below Searching, skip steps 3 and 4.

 

3. Check the victim's "chanceNoticePickedPocket" spawnarg (0.00 -> 1.00, default 0.50). Since the chance value is compared to a random number, and it's only compared once, if it fails, the victim won't react.

 

4. The "pickpocket_delay_min" spawnarg (default 10 seconds) and the "pickpocket_delay_max" spawnarg (default 120 seconds) define a span of time that randomly delays the victim's reaction.

 

5. At reaction time ...

 

If he's in Searching mode or higher, he doesn't react.

 

If sleeping, his reaction is delayed until he wakes up.

 

If he's not in Alert Idle mode, he'll emit the picked pocket bark.

 

If sitting, he'll look either to the left or right for 3-5 seconds. He won't stand.

 

If standing, he'll play an anim, and turn to look at the ground behind him for 3-5 seconds.

 

If patrolling, he'll stop, play an anim, and turn to look at the ground behind him for 3-5 seconds.

 

6. When he's finished, he returns to what he was doing.

 

 

pickpocket_alert

 

The "pickpocket_alert" spawnarg (default 0.0) adds its value to the AI's current alert level, capping the alert level just below Combat. If the alert level rises to where he will emit a ramp-up bark, he won't emit the picked pocket bark. If the alert level rises to Searching or Agitated Searching, he will not look at the ground around him, but will do whatever the search code tells him to do. This also applies if he's sitting.

 

Evidence of intruders

 

If the picked pocket occurs near an alert and the victim reacts right away, his "evidence of intruders" count will bump up by 1.

 

If busy doing something else

 

If the AI is performing any of these activities at reaction time, he doesn't react:

 

- reacting to being hit by something

- having a conversation

- fleeing

- any other activity I think of later

 

If the AI is performing any of these activities when the delay is over, the reaction will either occur, or be delayed until after the activity is finished. It depends on how far along the activity is.

 

- relighting a light

- examining a rope

- opening or closing a door

- dealing with an elevator

 

If reacting to a picked pocket (pp) and something else happens

 

- light goes out - light ignored, continue pp reaction, light probably noticed later

 

For the rest of these, the pp reaction is aborted:

 

- rope appears

- hit by something

- start a conversation

- start searching

- spot an enemy

- start fleeing

- blinded

- failed KO

- spot weapon

- spot something suspicious

- a friend wants you to help search

- spot dead or unconscious person

- spot blood

- spot that something's missing

- spot a broken item

- need to run for cover

- your torch goes out

 

Animation

 

TBD. If the hands move in a new anim, we need replacement anims when the AI is carrying a torch or weapon.

 

Stealing keys

 

Stealing a key or stealing a money pouch should elicit the same reaction.

 

Stealing a key generally doesn't mean an AI can't get through the locked door the key fits. Mappers have been careful to not lock AI out, because it can mess with gameplay. (Unique situations where that's the desired behavior are up to the mapper.)

 

The bark

 

Barks are already defined. They should not generate propagated warning sounds to other AI. This bark is just the AI muttering to himself.

[grayman]

* edit: I don't want to abandon the notion of tying the response to something the player is responsible for, unless we really can't come up with anything. What about, for example, tying the checks to AI who are alerted. If the player pickpockets an AI, and then the AI is alerted in the future, a check is done to see if he notices the missing item. If he does, he extends his search or something (his ramp down is delayed or slowed). I haven't thought this out thoroughly yet, but that would be a way to tie the behaviour into something the player has done...if the player doesn't alert the AI, he won't run a missing object check. This has the benefit of being related to player behaviour, and making some real-life sense (if you notice something suspicious you might do a 'self diagnostic' and notice something missing).

 

I don't remember seeing this. Probably because it's an edit and the forum doesn't notify us when edits are made.

 

This is different from how I implemented it.

 

Should I change the design from:

 

player picks pocket, reaction is queued up to occur immediately or whenever it fits with what the victim is currently doing

 

to:

 

player picks pocket and the the reaction is delayed until the victim's next alert.

 

The latter design means that the AI are not aware of whether something's bound to their belt or not. It's only when something else happens to them that they realize they've lost something. This behavior will reduce the number of reactions the player will observe because the reaction could be turned off due to the alert level going too high.

[Springheel]

This is different from how I implemented it.

 

I thought you did respond to that idea, actually, or I interpreted the comment about mixing up the ramp-down as being a response. I don't think that idea needs to be implemented.

[RJFerret]

Thanks for the clarification that evidence of intruders bump is separate.

 

Should I change the design from:

 

player picks pocket, reaction is queued up to occur immediately or whenever it fits with what the victim is currently doing

 

I would not change it from this design, this fits typical behavior most in my opinion.

[AluminumHaste]

Has anyone thought of the case in which an AI might be looking for a pickpocketed item, and finds it on the floor, like a key the player drops after not needing it anymore?

 

Will the AI kneel down and pick it up? I guess they can use the checking on unconscious AI animation to kneel down.

 

If the key or item is on the ground in a corner or behind something, and the AI can see it but can't pathfind to it, then what?

 

BTW grayman, this is really cool.

[Springheel]

Has anyone thought of the case in which an AI might be looking for a pickpocketed item, and finds it on the floor, like a key the player drops after not needing it anymore?

 

There's currently no mechanism for AI to notice a pickpocketed item the player drops. And in the vast majority of cases (loot purses and keys) players can't drop them anyway.

[AluminumHaste]

Makes sense, but how silly would it look if a player pickpockets a master key, then drops it on the floor where said AI pathfinds, and to watch the AI worry with barks "I'm so getting flogged for this in the morning, need to find that key"....*tink tink tink*, as the guard walks over the key he is supposedly looking for, sending it flying out the window.

[Springheel]

Well, there's no such bark, and players can't drop keys, so we should be safe.

 

Even if that scenario could happen, it's still within the bounds of realistic behaviour, I think. I know I've "lost" things in plain sight on more than one occasion.

[AluminumHaste]

I suppose, but I could have sworn I've dropped keys before, especially in missions where there were a ton of them......I'm losing my mind springs

[Springheel]

Keys are set to nodrop by default because most of them aren't movables. Most of them, if you do set it so you can drop them, will just stay in the air where dropped and potentially block AI.

 

Mappers could over-ride this by only using certain keys that have clipmodels and setting them to be droppable, though I don't know if anyone has gone through that trouble.

[RJFerret]

There's a mission with an obvious trap, it also features a bunch of keys that are useless at that point, I used them to throw at the bait item of the trap to move it out of the trap.

 

The default keys in my missions (from prefab chests/boxes) are physical objects but with inv_droppable defaulting to 0. So just changing that allows them to be dropped/thrown/etc.

 

So no mind being lost (it must be set to inv_droppable 0 too). ;-)

[demagogue]

You said if they see the player as the new behavior is going on, and ramp up to alert, they override with the alert bark.

 

Since you already made the check, and are talking about new barks, couldn't that alert also be an opportunity for barks about the player just pickpocketing them, directly addressed to the player?

[grayman]

You said if they see the player as the new behavior is going on, and ramp up to alert, they override with the alert bark.

 

Since you already made the check, and are talking about new barks, couldn't that alert also be an opportunity for barks about the player just pickpocketing them, directly addressed to the player?

 

If we had such barks, I could have the code figure out which bark is the most correct to play. Player-specific barks would only apply when the victim spots the player. We have no specific barks for other situations, like audio alerts (footsteps, etc.) that are near a picked pocket event.

[Sotha]

New, improved anim.

No head scratching. Less elbow distortion. More deadly to players sneaking behind the AI.

 

[Springheel]

That's certainly an improvement, but there's still the problem I mentioned originally, that ANY animation that's not extremely subtle is going to have--what if the pickpocketed object was hanging on the back of the character's belt? Is it going to look weird that the guard is patting down their front when the key was on their back hip (a very common location) or a dagger stuck in their boot, a jeweled pin on their hat, or anything else creative a mapper might do?

 

The turning to look at the ground part is well done...maybe the animation should be only that, and the 'patting' part taken out (I'd be interested to see what the patting looks like on bigger characters like the forger).

[Araneidae]

Still got wonky elbows on the leftmost character (flattened this time). I think I can see that third bone somebody mentioned earlier, looks very odd.

[Sotha]

@Spring,

You are the director of art things, and what you say goes, but I sort of disagree. I find the patting good. Here is why:

 

*Without the patting, the AI will just suddenly start peeking around. The patting gives a clue that the AI is doing something special and gives the player few seconds to react. It is a gameplay safety signal.

*Like you said, we cannot ever consider all loot locations, we can never make anims for all patting scenarios. A generic patting is still better than nothing.

 

The patting is not weird even if the loot object is in different location than the patting. Consider an example:

In real life you keep your wallet in the back pocket of your jeans. Suddenly you realize the familiar lump is not there. You pat it with you hand and realize it is not there. Frantically, you pat the other back pocket, and then the chest pockets of your jacket. You do this even though you do not normally put the wallet in your jacket chest pockets. You feel a lump in the jacket pocket and feel relieved you just misplaced the wallet in the chest pocket instead of your back pocket.

 

Same thing with AI. The generic patting should cover the typical loot item locations, which are at the hips for def_attached items. Then the AI pats chest pockets the check if the item was in there, just like you would in real life.

 

As for the dagger in the boot, the AI might still check his waist if the dagger is safely tucked there instead.

 

It should be easy to adjust the initial patting locations so that they coincide with the location of typical def_attached loot. Thanks for considering my proposal.

 

Still got wonky elbows on the leftmost character (flattened this time). I think I can see that third bone somebody mentioned earlier, looks very odd.

 

Like said, getting the elbows right is *very* difficult. I don't think they will ever be absolutely perfect. I'll keep trying, however.

[Springheel]

*Without the patting, the AI will just suddenly start peeking around. The patting gives a clue that the AI is doing something special and gives the player few seconds to react. It is a gameplay safety signal.

 

You raise some good points. I guess we'll need to see it in game to see how it looks. I'm also concerned that the "patting" might clip into the torso on thicker characters, like the forger and thug.

[grayman]

WRT animations, can I assume at this point that:

 

1 - AI wielding weapons won't use them

 

2 - AI carrying torches or lanterns won't use them

 

3 - Sitters won't use them

[Sotha]

WRT animations, can I assume at this point that:

 

1 - AI wielding weapons won't use them

 

2 - AI carrying torches or lanterns won't use them

 

3 - Sitters won't use them

 

If you find it necessary, alternate versions can be made:

1) Right hand holds item.

2) Left hand holds item.

 

Once the anim is done, it would be probably easy to immobilize one hand into the item-holding pose.

 

Sitters... Yes. Making a sitting variant would be probably completely different can of worms.

 

You raise some good points. I guess we'll need to see it in game to see how it looks. I'm also concerned that the "patting" might clip into the torso on thicker characters, like the forger and thug.

 

I will investigate. It shouldn't be too difficult to modify it for the fatties as well. There is the question, though, whether it is feasable to have multiple versions of the same anim. Each animation consumes 1.5 Mb of HDD space. I do not know what the memory impact is, but doesn't having a zillion animations eat away the memory available for the other mission content?

[Sotha]

The patting works for the thug, just barely.

 

For forger it is a no-go, although with good imagination it looks like he is checking inside his apron. Maybe the anim should be disablde for characters of wide proportions. The forger is quite unique in proportions, probably he has animation clippings in other anims, too....