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Is TDM a Game?


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#276 Lux

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:06 AM

So its not a game? :P

#277 Atheran

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:08 AM

Well... I do consider it mostly a toolset for FM creators to be honest even if I advertise it as a game to friends. But I believe that a game in order to be considered as such need to have more than some hours or days in our case of gameplay. It needs a story for once. And the campaign will help with that.

True if you take away the adventures from Dungeons and Dragons can be considered a platform for content creators. But D&D is a bad example for mainly one reason. It has a massive story in context. There are 3-4 different worlds a countless of different distinct and perfectly built characters and a massive ammount of novels/comics/music/movies/even cartoons based on it. WHen I think of D&D I don't think about 4 sided dices but about the drow about elminster about the pantheon etc.

As of now TDM has no such thing outside of FM series that built on themselves like WS for example. Every other FM is with a new character in a different background etc. After we get the campaign then I could say it's a game. If it so happens that other FM authors build on the story/characters/city of the campaign then there's no doubt it'll be a game.
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#278 Tels

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:24 AM

Well... I do consider it mostly a toolset for FM creators to be honest even if I advertise it as a game to friends. But I believe that a game in order to be considered as such need to have more than some hours or days in our case of gameplay. It needs a story for once. And the campaign will help with that.


Why do people always insist that a campaign (and an official even) makes it a game?

A campaign is just several missions strung together. If you split up a single FM into two, and string them together into a campaign, does that suddenly make TDM a game? We already have mutli-mission FMs, so what is the difference to a "proper" campaign then? And when is it enough? Will a short campaign suffice? Must it be a long one? How long is "long"? Does it need an overaching plot? And why is Pacman a game, but TDM with Saint Lucia not?

Honestly, I don't get these arbitrary distinctions that are drawn here.
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#279 Obsttorte

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:28 AM

What is a game and what not is a matter of definition. And how you define something is up to you. I call it a Apfel, you call it an apple, still we are talking about the same (for non-german members: Apfel is the german word for apple).

Whether you call TDM a game or not is completely pointless, as you are always referring to the same, TDM. You just give it different names, but this does not change what it is.

Sometimes I think it would have been better if the human race never learned to speak, so we would not have such an amount of senseless discussions :P
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#280 Springheel

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:29 AM

But I believe that a game in order to be considered as such need to have more than some hours or days in our case of gameplay. It needs a story for once.


This argument has been raised and countered numerous times in this thread. The short form: lots of games have no story, no campaigns, and no central character (and no novels/music/cartoons).

And how you define something is up to you.


Sure, if you want to talk to yourself. If you actually want to communicate with other people, then you need to have words that have agreed upon meanings, to as great a degree as possible.
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#281 Vae

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:30 AM

Why do people always insist that a campaign (and an official even) makes it a game?


Ruling out ill-will, the irrationality stems from a collapse in logic, due to non-critical mental conditioning.

After we get the campaign then I could say it's a game. If it so happens that other FM authors build on the story/characters/city of the campaign then there's no doubt it'll be a game.


It's a good thing that it's an objective fact that TDM is a game...The only thing that would change by having a campaign, is then TDM would be a game with a campaign.

That's it...there's nothing more to it...To say otherwise, is simply ignorant.

Edited by Vae, 23 August 2014 - 07:32 AM.


#282 Obsttorte

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:35 AM

Sure, if you want to talk to yourself. If you actually want to communicate with other people, then you need to have words that have agreed upon meanings, to as great a degree as possible.

Your argument would be valid if the beginning of this topic had dealt with a proper definition of what the term "game" actuall ymeans. This didn't happen. People are just saying it is or it is not, without taking into consideration that other people may understand it in a completely different way.

So if we want to discuss this, we first need to answer the question: "What is a game?"
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#283 Atheran

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:39 AM

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad thing. I honestly think that a platform is more important than a game made in UDK for example. As for your questions there's not an answer I can give you, I believe it's mostly about the general context and the story. And please don't give me packman as an example. It was made some 40 years ago. Things have changed now. As for the FM series I told that already they can be considered a game. But to my knowledge they are still ongoing.

to be clear can you consider a bunch of non connected t2 missions a game compared to t2 itself?
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#284 Springheel

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:04 AM

So if we want to discuss this, we first need to answer the question: "What is a game?"


It wasn't in the original post because this thread spawned off a thread from another board. In that original thread, there were definitely definitions put forward. And I put forward one myself in this thread.

A "game" is the set of rules, options and victory conditions, IMO. Chess is still a game, even if you don't have a board and pieces to play with, because it defines those 3 things. An RPG is still a game, even if you don't have an "adventure" ready to play.

TDM is a set of rules, options and victory conditions. Different missions can modify those to some degree, but the core features are what make up TDM. There are a set of rules that establish how the game world works (physics, AI capabilities, etc). There are a set series of options available to the player (in terms of movement, tools, etc), and the victory condition is "surviving" + whatever else the mission adds. The fact that you can't PLAY the game without missions is of no more consequence then saying you can't play chess without a board and pieces.


People are just saying it is or it is not, without taking into consideration that other people may understand it in a completely different way.


Some people, perhaps. I'm not, which is why I provided a definition that could be debated. I agree that just putting forward an opinion without dealing with the arguments against it that have already been posted is not very useful.


However, on a more philosophical level, you don't have to put forward a definition in advance. You can also arrive at one by process of elimination. For example, if Atheran is prepared to say that D&D, The Sims, Chess, and Hide and Seek are not games, by his definition, then I'd agree that TDM isn't one either by his standards. I'd then suggest that his definition of "game" is too far outside the bounds of general usefulness to be valued, since the vast majority of people would say that those things ARE games.
TDM Missions:   A Score to Settle   *   A Reputation to Uphold   *   A New Job   *    A Matter of Hours
 
Video Series:   Springheel's Modules   *   Speedbuild Challenge   *   New Mappers Workshop  *   Building Traps

#285 Vae

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:05 AM

As for your questions there's not an answer I can give you, I believe it's mostly about the general context and the story. And please don't give me packman as an example. It was made some 40 years ago. Things have changed now. As for the FM series I told that already they can be considered a game. But to my knowledge they are still ongoing.


This is a perfect example of non-critical thinking...Modern narrative gaming trends have influenced some to falsely conclude that the narrative is the game, and the game is the narrative...as if somehow they are one inseparable thing, rather than the two separate components they actually are.

A game, is the gameplay mechanics in relation to a challenge component...That's what a game is...A story component is optional...Some games have stories, while others do not...like Minecraft, for example.

#286 Deadlove

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:32 PM

A game, is the gameplay mechanics in relation to a challenge component...That's what a game is...A story component is optional...Some games have stories, while others do not...like Minecraft, for example.


Or DOOM!! DOOM has no story.

SOmeone tell me DOOM is not a game and they're gonna get their ass kicked so hard they're gonna be shitting socks!

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