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Is TDM a Game?


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#51 wesp5

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 06:31 AM

I know I'm sick of games that try to keep people pressing the button for rewards in place of actually being entertaining across the time you spend on it...


I agree with that! Giving XPs or money or inventory for finished FM won't bring them closer together, in fact it may make some too easy or too hard to finish if you didn't play others before. One aspect though that was already suggested in the Improvements thread is that giving more stats for each mission in the mission list, like e.g. difficulty, might make the thing at least look more rewarding ;)!

And as for the "TDM is not a game" discussion, what about Minecraft? Is that considered a game on the Eidos forum?

#52 lowenz

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 07:37 AM

[OT]
Hey Wesp, are you THIS Wesp5?

http://www.rpgwatch....mber.php?u=1022

Just asking.
[/OT]

Edited by lowenz, 19 March 2014 - 07:37 AM.

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#53 nbohr1more

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 07:45 AM

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Perhaps we should try a different approach...

"TDM, this is no game. This shit's for real yo."
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#54 Springheel

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 07:49 AM

I would like to see THIS whole thread (here on TDM forums) getting deleted as it is not worth discussing if TDM is a game, really.


Why would you suggest deleting the messages of everyone who is enjoying the discussion, rather than just avoiding it if you think it's not worth discussing?
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#55 wesp5

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 07:56 AM

[OT]
Hey Wesp, are you THIS Wesp5?


Yes, I did the Unofficial Patches for the last two big DeepShadows games and I also still patch VTM: Bloodlines, which has some pretty good stealth options on its own. Although the stealth system was pretty much too easy before I tweaked it!

Back on topic, I read on the Eidos forum thread that there are several campaigns done by the TDM team members. Why don't you include these or the "No Honor Among Thieves" one mentioned there with the main game? Or if you don't want to do that, create some kind of DVD Release like "The Babylon Project" did, in which they made a compilation of the best stuff to fit on one DVD without need to download anything. Something like this is possibly on the PC Powerplay DVD...

Edited by wesp5, 19 March 2014 - 07:59 AM.


#56 SteveL

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 08:19 AM

Why don't you include these or the "No Honor Among Thieves" one mentioned there with the main game?

+1
NHAT is breathtaking quality, fun to play, and it's already complete. It would make a great partner to St Lucia as a flagship/intro to TDM imo. There are bigger campaigns in production, but there's nothing to stop the included list being updated from time to time.
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#57 Taquito

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 08:45 AM

Tears of St Lucia has a big Achilles Heel and that's the guard at the beginning who serves as a roadblock. Which is a subtle way to force the player to take a certain path and as rabid Deus Ex fan I got pissed by this and stopped playing for a long time. This to me wasn't a great first impression for the game. Why would a guard stay in the shadows at night instead of below a light source just a few steps ahead? besides he was hidden and forcefully placed and it's just follows the path of modern games in a way.

I would like to pinpoint the fact that TDM is a free game, therefore everyone and their dog will download and try this game, whether they played Thief Games before or they like the mechanics or the concept or not. And they will pass judgment like that. At the same time TDM is protected by the fact that it's free and many people will show countenance when criticizing it.

#58 Taquito

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 08:59 AM

Aren't you tired of seeing examples of B.F. Skinner's work in gaming? I know I'm sick of games that try to keep people pressing the button for rewards in place of actually being entertaining across the time you spend on it (unless you're the type who enjoys the grind, in which case more power to you, but I'd had enough of that by the second expansion of the only MMO I've played, and it's not for me).


You judge me as if I were a COD fan. lol I'm a big Deus Ex/System Shock fan and both these games are excellence in Rewards and Lasting Appeal. Why does it need to be different with this game? Of course I would love to be able to sell my stuff and buy new equipment. That's part of being greedy and greed is a huge element in this game. I would also love to see progression of my character, see him grow in experience, climb faster, move faster, being more agile overall. How would these elements harm TDM if THE DARK MOD ALREADY HAS A SOLID GAMEPLAY BASE. A VERY SOLID GAMEPLAY STRUCTURE. Any other addition would not affect this rather make it more rich. If you already have a solid structure I don't think adding those features would affect the game in such a way that would detriment the whole experience.

#59 Xarg

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:09 AM

Considering that aside from the few series (Thomas Porter, Corbin, William Steele, the thief in NHAT) most missions are different nameless protagonists in different places, a system to climb faster or whatever would largely go to waste, you aren't playing the same character most of the time. No one said anything about CoD until you brought it up, so where is this progression you're talking about? How could it harm TDM? Well, it could possibly harm the game by being the fifth wheel on a car when only four are required, especially when all existing maps have been balanced against the protagonists being all at the same level. A solid base is only solid until you start taking to it with a sledgehammer, why fix what isn't broken? Why don't we add in silent takedowns? Or maybe a cinematic aoe multi flashbomb toss that blinds and burns enemies around you? Any other addition would only make it more rich, right?

Edited by Xarg, 19 March 2014 - 09:27 AM.

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#60 Melan

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:14 AM

I would like to pinpoint the fact that TDM is a free game, therefore everyone and their dog will download and try this game, whether they played Thief Games before or they like the mechanics or the concept or not.

Ten years ago I would have nodded, but I'm not sure anymore. There is immense competition for peoples' free time, and some of the options are really cheap. You can get months worth of stuff for something like 10-20 Euros on places like GOG or Steam. Many people don't play free games, they just download and never touch them. They don't even touch the ones they paid for. Convincing people that a game is worth their time is a big challenge.

On another note, I am all for adding NHAT to TDM as a default mini-campaign. It is well-written, it is polished, and it has a sufficiently large scope to make you think of the possibilities. So, why not?
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#61 Airship Ballet

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:17 AM

I would also love to see progression of my character, see him grow in experience, climb faster, move faster, being more agile overall.

The problem with that is that you're suggesting gameplay elements that have been repeatedly condemned in a fair few places on this forum. TDM takes cues from a game made during a time where that kind of thing didn't exist outside of RPGs. Everything you got, you picked up in the map, and the items themselves were progressively more and more powerful. It's based on item progression rather than player progression, and not in the sense that you upgrade the items, but rather that you find better ones as you go or as rewards for very difficult exploration. It's simply a modern re-imagining of something from a drastically different industry. Levelling and persistent progression is a trait of some modern games, and they haven't influenced the game in that respect.

Why does it need to be different with this game?

Because Deus Ex and System Shock are RPGs with skill levelling, while TDM (and Thief) are stealthy takes on FPS games of yore that didn't use skills.

Edited by Airship Ballet, 19 March 2014 - 09:38 AM.


#62 SeriousToni

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:25 AM

Why would you suggest deleting the messages of everyone who is enjoying the discussion, rather than just avoiding it if you think it's not worth discussing?


That's right. That is what Victoria and Master Taffer would so.
I read through the comments and now I am really enjoying this topic too as many of them seem to think the same way that I do.

And I was especially amused by the funny comments of nbohr ^_^ :

You better not tell him about the 7 Thomas Porter missions since the 3 mission NHAT almost gave him a heart attack. Both also are made by team members.... Imagine that.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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#63 wesp5

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:00 AM

Why not include all missions by team members into the next official TDM release, in case their quality is sufficient? Then new players could slowly work their way up from training over St. Lucia and NHAT to the Thomas Porter missions without needing to download anything else! After that they are either hooked and will play every FM out there, like I am right now ;), or will have stopped playing already...

Edited by wesp5, 19 March 2014 - 10:04 AM.

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#64 Taquito

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:10 AM

Considering that aside from the few series (Thomas Porter, Corbin, William Steele, the thief in NHAT) most missions are different nameless protagonists in different places, a system to climb faster or whatever would largely go to waste, you aren't playing the same character most of the time. No one said anything about CoD until you brought it up, so where is this progression you're talking about? How could it harm TDM? Well, it could possibly harm the game by being the fifth wheel on a car when only four are required, especially when all existing maps have been balanced against the protagonists being all at the same level. A solid base is only solid until you start taking to it with a sledgehammer, why fix what isn't broken? Why don't we add in silent takedowns? Or maybe a cinematic aoe multi flashbomb toss that blinds and burns enemies around you? Any other addition would only make it more rich, right?



YOU DID IT AGAIN! Stop doing that! I do not like Human Revolution! You are now indirectly passing judgement on me as if I were a HR fan as if I wanted those elements in TDM. I did say that TDM has a very solid gameplay. gameplay mechanics! It doesn't mean it's a solid game in terms of rewards or lasting appeal and story line.Back to the main topic, I haven't played the New Thief but based on most reviews I've seen most of the complaints come from game play mechanics (not being able to mantle, jumping) and story. What I meant is that TDM does not suffer from those gameplay issues.

#65 Taquito

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:18 AM

Ten years ago I would have nodded, but I'm not sure anymore. There is immense competition for peoples' free time, and some of the options are really cheap. You can get months worth of stuff for something like 10-20 Euros on places like GOG or Steam. Many people don't play free games, they just download and never touch them. They don't even touch the ones they paid for. Convincing people that a game is worth their time is a big challenge.

On another note, I am all for adding NHAT to TDM as a default mini-campaign. It is well-written, it is polished, and it has a sufficiently large scope to make you think of the possibilities. So, why not?




The fact that it's free makes a huge difference when it comes to people's perspective. If you charge a dime for this game the criticism would be way more severe than what it is now simply because you charged a dime. I don't mean by this that it deserves harsh criticism. I mean people will scrutinize a game from head to toe just because you charged for it. It makes a huge difference.





The problem with that is that you're suggesting gameplay elements that have been repeatedly condemned in a fair few places on this forum. TDM takes cues from a game made during a time where that kind of thing didn't exist outside of RPGs. Everything you got, you picked up in the map, and the items themselves were progressively more and more powerful. It's based on item progression rather than player progression, and not in the sense that you upgrade the items, but rather that you find better ones as you go or as rewards for very difficult exploration. It's simply a modern re-imagining of something from a drastically different industry. Levelling and persistent progression is a trait of some modern games, and they haven't influenced the game in that respect.

Because Deus Ex and System Shock are RPGs with skill levelling, while TDM (and Thief) are stealthy takes on FPS games of yore that didn't use skills.



Both System Shock and Deus Ex use stealthy elements as well as First Person Shooter elements with skill progression and rewards.That's why they are considered excellence. Because they were able to wrap all these elements so well.

Edited by Taquito, 19 March 2014 - 10:22 AM.


#66 Airship Ballet

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:24 AM

Back to the main topic, I haven't played the New Thief


Could've sworn the main topic was about EM mods not wanting to acknowledge that TDM is a game, rather than Thiaf's intrinsic qualities. No need to take personal offense, by the way (what's wrong with liking HR? It was a good game). TDM isn't a solid game in terms of rewards because it doesn't have rewards. It's a bunch of missions, largely unrelated in terms of narrative and design. The emphasis is on the gameplay of the moment and what you can take from that, not the long-running distillation of every mission into one big skill pool that you grind so you can level up your walking speed. If you'd like to be rewarded for every head shot and loot pick-up, the game isn't for you. It's from a time where the reward is beating the mission itself, before achievements and flashy point pop-ups were required to make people feel special for just playing the game, and progressively make what they've already accomplished easier. When it comes to that, people don't play to play the game for what it is, they play to have a bigger number before their name than everybody else.

they were able to wrap all these elements so well.


I'd disagree. The skills in Deus Ex are irritating, given that rounds come out of gun barrels sideways until you level up the skill that allows you to shoot straight. The stealth is very wonky and you have almost no indication of how well-hidden you are, to the point it almost feels like RNG. Both that and System Shock have paths you can follow to make the game far too easy, and also--especially for System Shock--let you completely cripple yourself to a point where the game is unplayable because you couldn't see into the future. The skills are my least favorite elements of both of those games, simply because of the dissonance between the adrenaline hit-scan shooter context they were born out of and the restrictive levels dampening your own skill. Bottom line is that skills just detract from the player's ability and put you on the game's rails rather than your own. In this case, it puts a huge restriction on the mapper, and just isn't realistic unless the entire game is built around it. Accomodation of it aside, this just isn't the type of game to benefit from skills. It's a modern thing that's bled out of RPGs into the AAA scene to let people feel like they're progressing somewhere because it's just not enough to beat the thing anymore, which is understandable in most cases given how damn easy they are.

Edited by Airship Ballet, 19 March 2014 - 10:32 AM.


#67 Xarg

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:26 AM

YOU DID IT AGAIN! Stop doing that! I do not like Human Revolution! You are now indirectly passing judgement on me as if I were a HR fan as if I wanted those elements in TDM. I did say that TDM has a very solid gameplay.


If you want to ask for modern gaming ideas/conventions, then you should be prepared to face comparisons to modern gaming. I don't care one bit about what games you like, they make no difference to the points you are making, or to the points I am making. If you want persistent leveling (how does that even make sense, why would completing the Thomas Porter series make William Steele a better thief?) which is a modern game convention (outside of the RPG genre, where you are typically playing the same character anyway).

TDM has solid game play through NOT embracing those modern gaming conventions, and instead sticking to the conventions of the T1/T2 era, where those conventions were not at play. If you don't want to face comparisons to the modern games of the era you're drawing these suggestions from, then stop suggesting them, you don't get to eat your cake and have it too.

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#68 Taquito

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:44 AM

If you want to ask for modern gaming ideas/conventions, then you should be prepared to face comparisons to modern gaming. I don't care one bit about what games you like, they make no difference to the points you are making, or to the points I am making. If you want persistent leveling (how does that even make sense, why would completing the Thomas Porter series make William Steele a better thief?) which is a modern game convention (outside of the RPG genre, where you are typically playing the same character anyway).

TDM has solid game play through NOT embracing those modern gaming conventions, and instead sticking to the conventions of the T1/T2 era, where those conventions were not at play. If you don't want to face comparisons to the modern games of the era you're drawing these suggestions from, then stop suggesting them, you don't get to eat your cake and have it too.





NOOOOOOOOOO THOSE ARE NOT MODERN GAMING CONVENTIONS! That's why I mentioned Deus ex 1 and System Shock 2. Those games are not considered new and they had those elements.

#69 Xarg

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:53 AM

Did you miss the part where I exempted RPG's? It sure looks like you did, and can you stop talking in all caps? Finally you're still avoiding my question about why completing Thomas Porter would make William Steele a better thief, and I suspect it's because you don't have an answer.

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#70 Taquito

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:54 AM

Could've sworn the main topic was about EM mods not wanting to acknowledge that TDM is a game, rather than Thiaf's intrinsic qualities. No need to take personal offense, by the way (what's wrong with liking HR? It was a good game). TDM isn't a solid game in terms of rewards because it doesn't have rewards. It's a bunch of missions, largely unrelated in terms of narrative and design. The emphasis is on the gameplay of the moment and what you can take from that, not the long-running distillation of every mission into one big skill pool that you grind so you can level up your walking speed. If you'd like to be rewarded for every head shot and loot pick-up, the game isn't for you. It's from a time where the reward is beating the mission itself, before achievements and flashy point pop-ups were required to make people feel special for just playing the game, and progressively make what they've already accomplished easier. When it comes to that, people don't play to play the game for what it is, they play to have a bigger number before their name than everybody else.



I'd disagree. The skills in Deus Ex are irritating, given that rounds come out of gun barrels sideways until you level up the skill that allows you to shoot straight. The stealth is very wonky and you have almost no indication of how well-hidden you are, to the point it almost feels like RNG. Both that and System Shock have paths you can follow to make the game far too easy, and also--especially for System Shock--let you completely cripple yourself to a point where the game is unplayable because you couldn't see into the future. The skills are my least favorite elements of both of those games, simply because of the dissonance between the adrenaline hit-scan shooter context they were born out of and the restrictive levels dampening your own skill. Bottom line is that skills just detract from the player's ability and put you on the game's rails rather than your own. In this case, it puts a huge restriction on the mapper, and just isn't realistic unless the entire game is built around it. Accomodation of it aside, this just isn't the type of game to benefit from skills. It's a modern thing that's bled out of RPGs into the AAA scene to let people feel like they're progressing somewhere because it's just not enough to beat the thing anymore, which is understandable in most cases given how damn easy they are.



Airship Ballet. First of all please do not quote a cut sentence made by me. It's very distasteful. And it looks you did it to take advantage of it. Metal Gea.. I mean, HR is a good game? It might be, but It's not a good Deus Ex Sequel! It feels like Eidos Montreal took the inspiration from Mediocre games isntead of the Original Deus Ex. Guess What!? They did the same thing with this new Call of Thief. I won't deny I enjoyed to see the frustration in Thief Fans all over when the game was released. I drank a glass of wine in the balcony of my apartment in the Projects in celebration! (Evil Laugh!) lol So you guys feel the same way I did when HR was released. I LOVE THE NEW THIEF! :D

Edited by Taquito, 19 March 2014 - 11:17 AM.


#71 Airship Ballet

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 11:03 AM

The majority take quotes that represents the other's argument without skewing it so that their own post makes sense without having to read back up. It's also done in order to prevent posts being duplicated all over the page and make it way longer and awkward to read than it needs to be. Netiquette is everything, and apparently something you're not familiar with. If you're comparing MGS to HR, you're really not informed enough to be providing insight into the overhaul of somebody else's project.

Edited by Airship Ballet, 19 March 2014 - 11:04 AM.


#72 Springheel

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 11:05 AM

Tears of St Lucia has a big Achilles Heel and that's the guard at the beginning who serves as a roadblock. Which is a subtle way to force the player to take a certain path and as rabid Deus Ex fan I got pissed by this and stopped playing for a long time


It doesn't force the player...there are many ways to get past that guard. But it does encourage them to go a different route, much like the first guards in Bafford's Manor do.

I would also love to see progression of my character, see him grow in experience, climb faster, move faster, being more agile

overall. How would these elements harm TDM


I think others have already pointed out how this wouldn't work when most missions are completely unrelated. Campaigns can already do the part about storing up gold.

Having the _character_ actually get better goes against the design philosophy of TDM (and Thief). In TDM, you are the character, and you get better by actually getting better. You learn the subtleties of blackjacking and become better at it; you learn how AI behave and become better at hiding, etc. The game doesn't hand you your improvements...you have to earn them.
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#73 Taquito

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 11:13 AM

The majority take quotes that represents the other's argument without skewing it so that their own post makes sense without having to read back up. It's also done in order to prevent posts being duplicated all over the page and make it way longer and awkward to read than it needs to be. Netiquette is everything, and apparently something you're not familiar with. If you're comparing MGS to HR, you're really not informed enough to be providing insight into the overhaul of somebody else's project.



I know enough Netiquette to know not to cut half of a sentence of a quote made by someone. I rather quote the entire page or simply cut the complete sentence. I would never do something like that. I'm sorry if I write in caps sometimes but I get a bit frustrated if I feel like I'm being placed in a box.

Back again to the topic. I just suggested the Exp points as something just for the sense of progression. Even if those experience points don't mean anything at all. It could also be used with stars in alongside the Mission when completed as I mentioned in another topic. I was just trowing ideas that's all. It was not my intention to be disrespectful.

Edited by Taquito, 19 March 2014 - 11:15 AM.


#74 wesp5

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 11:17 AM

The skills in Deus Ex are irritating, given that rounds come out of gun barrels sideways until you level up the skill that allows you to shoot straight.


I'll second that! In System Shock 2 you couldn't use some weapons at all unless you leveled up a skill, as if it would be too difficult to pull a trigger. Even in real RPGs, like the Elder Scrolls games or my beloved Bloodlines, skills are problematic, because either you gain them like in the former by repeating something, which is grinding and thus boring, or like in the later you get XP for completing a quest and can spend them on skills you didn't even use at all, which makes no sense. To me special items improving the player which you gain through quests are the best way out of this dilemma and I don't see how this can be done in a many single missions scenario like in TDM.

But I agree with Taquito that a star system on the missions list, each star for each difficulty, would be a good idea!

Edited by wesp5, 19 March 2014 - 11:19 AM.


#75 Airship Ballet

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 11:23 AM

I know enough Netiquette to know not to cut half of a sentence of a quote made by someone

It didn't skew what you said at all, so what's the issue? You went off-topic to talk about Thiaf's gameplay mechanics, which isn't an issue to me except you claimed it was the main topic. Unless what you're saying is that TDM isn't a game until it has a leveling system, I don't see the relevance. Of all the things to throw a caps lock tantrum about, paraphrasing posts in quotes shouldn't be one.

I'll second that! In System Shock 2 you couldn't use some weapons at all unless you leveled up a skill, as if it would be too difficult to pull a trigger

What's worse is that some cases along the line really require that specific weapon, and you had no way to know. Some RPGs get around that by giving you equipment that let you bypass skill requirements, which in this case would be Worn Gloves of +5 Trigger Pulling. I imagine it's very difficult as a dev when you spread yourself so thinly with RPG skills, because the trade-off to freedom is the sheer difficulty in directing the player to prevent them ending up in a rut. That goes doubly so for something as unforgiving as TDM's AI.




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