Is TDM a Game?

[Taquito]

It doesn't force the player...there are many ways to get past that guard. But it does encourage them to go a different route, much like the first guards in Bafford's Manor do.

 

 

Yes, It doesn't force the player but as I mentioned before it slightly does. It might not feel this way to you or many in the forum cause you are Thief Players. But to me and probably other players who are not familiar with the Thief Series or Thief Mechanics and played this for the first it could. You guys probably knew there's always another way, cause you know how it works. But for players who doesn't know that it might.

 

 

I think others have already pointed out how this wouldn't work when most missions are completely unrelated. Campaigns can already do the part about storing up gold.

 

Having the _character_ actually get better goes against the design philosophy of TDM (and Thief). In TDM, you are the character, and you get better by actually getting better. You learn the subtleties of blackjacking and become better at it; you learn how AI behave and become better at hiding, etc. The game doesn't hand you your improvements...you have to earn them.

 

 

That's understandable. At this point there's not much that can be done about it. The game is non related mission based. But it can make you feel you're starting from zero in every Mission, which is good and bad at the same time.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Taquito

[Taquito]

You're going off Topic as well AirshipB by scrutinizing System Shock. Every game has negative points but at the end of the day is a matter of who did it best at the end. I could also do the same with Thief and make a list of annoyances but that would be Off Topic. I'm glad that wesp5 agrees with me in something. If I can't sell my loot at least give me a star so I can see my progress in the Missions sheet. That would also solve the already completed mission thing.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Taquito

[Deadlove]

Yep! Def add NHAT to the downloader as default with St. Lucia's.

 

Never add skills to the thief, i.e. faster run/faster climb. I enjoy it much more that you are stuck at a certain skill level and have to use your brain to come up with more creative solutions as the levels get more difficult.

 

I *very* much would like to see loot collected serve a purpose beyond just collecting. In TDP/TMA it was essential to get as much as possible if you wnted to be able to make good purchases to prepare for next mission. In TDM I feel I'm looting just to reach an objective. As it stands, there is no need for that because there are no ongoing missions, save NHAT, which doesn't use the purchase system anyway.

[Airship Ballet]

You're going off Topic as well AirshipB by scrutinizing System Shock.

I did say I don't mind going OT, I said I take exception to going OT and claiming it's the "main topic".

Every game has negative points but at the end of the day is a matter of who did it best at the end.

Well, yeah, I don't think that needs to be said. You'll also be happy to know that the star thing exists in essence. On the mission description it tells you whether or not it's complete and the highest difficulty you've managed it on. Replicating the stars all the way down next to the titles is just redundant information; it's much tidier only displaying when you click a mission. There's a huge jump between player progression and record keeping, though.

[SeriousToni]

Wow that escalated quickly! O_O

I feel that you guys are a bit overheated right now about this topic (I don't think it's really offtopic except of your insults of each other). And from a neutral position I can second some things Taquito said. IF they're important to the game and the developement, that is really up to the dev team I believe:

 

The first Builder guard in St. Lucia was also a bit of a problem for me (as a veteran tdm player). Maybe you got me on the wrong foot there and I was just too stupid and missed the obvious. But after trying to sneak by that guard, distracting it, searching for another route for a long time I was a bit frustrated and quit the mission. Later on I just run past that guard leaving him behind searching for me. I think the Lord Bafford comparison is good because it shows that there is a clear hint in the mission briefing to NOT go through the main gate and instead take the river. The problem is that this obvious hint lacks in the briefing of St. Lucia. It should not be forbidden to slightly force the player to do things a way or another - that is part of this game. But in the FIRST mission one might play it is a bit of a let down where you should take the hand of the player and lead him / her in that situation.

It is a bit of a longer time since I played this mission, so I hope I recalled everything right. If not, please feel free to correct me.

 

Second thing is what Taquito said about making progress:

I dislike the idea of creating a global ingame shop or skill manager since the game character is a different one on each new fan mission. But I feel a bit bugged to start all over again on each new mission with a given amount of gold to by my tools. I think it would really help to make the missions a REAL campaign (link them together) which belong together. It would be a nice feeling to spend my loot on the start of William Steele 2 right after completing WS1. Imagine the Thomas Porter saga linked together to a campaign in which the outro of the former mission gives hands to the intro of the next one! That really would help creating a more coherent feeling in my eyes.

What is the problem, that the linked missions aren't connected to true campaigns yet?

 

Just my two cents on this. I don't wanted these points to get lost in a flame war. Opinions welcome!

Edited March 19, 2014 by SeriousToni

[grayman]

What is the problem, that the linked missions aren't connected to true campaigns yet?

 

For those of us who haven't investigated campaign-izing a series of missions, the problem is time, interest, and (in my case) wanting an overall sense of the entire series before beginning to link them together.

 

I intend to make the WS missions into a campaign, but not until WS8 is completed.

 

My decision to release them one at a time is based on two things:

 

1 - not wanting people to wait 5 years for the last one to be finished before being able to play the first one

 

2 - giving people the ability to play any one mission

 

A long time ago, I posed the question of whether a player could start in the middle of a campaign, and I never got an answer.

 

If I was releasing WS as a campaign, and that's the only way you could play the missions, then when it came time to add WS4 to the existing WS campaign, players would have to start again with WS1 in order to work their way up to WS4.

 

In the end, when WS8 is finished and WS becomes a campaign, will there still be players around who haven't played WS1->WS7? Perhaps all the work it takes to campaign-ize 8 missions will be for naught.

[Taquito]

Thanks for the insight Serious Toni. I felt like I was about to be burned alive. It seems some people want to throw new gamers into the fire right from the start. Both Tears of Saint Lucia and NHAT are too complicated for players who are probably going to be too busy being frustrated with the Blackjack and how to hit guards properly like I was to be bothered with big intricate maps. What's wrong with Knighton Manor? It has a cute little intro, nice music. It all happens in a Manor and the beginning offers several pathways right from the start. It's a great practice for beginners and it's entertaining enough too keep the attention going. If there's gonna be a map that goes along the Game it should be as simple as possible. The others are great if you already know what you're doing.

[Xarg]

I doubt you'd see Knighton Manor included in the download, it's part of the Thomas Porter series. Another mansion heist mission you probably could include would be Sons of Baltona, as any sequel missions don't appear to be in the works at all.

[Airship Ballet]

Only one of us is screaming in caps, taking offense at opposing opinions and acting like it's an argument rather than a debate; don't lump me in with that .

 

I think level progression outside RPGs is absolutely fine where it's needed, primarily in class-based multiplayer. Beyond that, it's generally just an easy way to mask repetitive and simplified gameplay. In this case, there's nothing simplified about the levels, and nothing to hold your hand. The emphasis is on the player's skills of perception and agility improving, rather than the character automatically making it easy for them as a reward for just progressing a bit. TDM's state is a result, like I said, of being heavily influenced by Thief, which is in turn influenced by similarly player skill-based games at the time. Due to its foundations, it just isn't made to accommodate that kind of infrastructure.

 

It seems some people want to throw new gamers into the fire right from the start.

 

You kinda just burst in saying that TDM lacks something that would almost entirely overhaul the game as a whole. You never justified it, but rather said it's something you'd like to see and that other people have done it in the past and present. It's nothing about you being new, and nothing about wanting to flame you, at all, you just reacted really harshly to being called out on having a weak argument. If you think it's so necessary for the game, maybe say how it would benefit, why it's necessary, how it would be implemented, think about the repurcussions and so on. You can't just suggest something and then go nuts when it's contested; justify it, rationally, without bursting into a fit of rage when it doesn't go down as well as you'd hope.

[Springheel]

The problem is that this obvious hint lacks in the briefing of St. Lucia.

 

Well, the briefing does say specifically that the main route is liable to be heavily guarded and that you should look for another way in.

 

It's possible that St. Lucia is not the ideal first mission for someone who has never played Thief before. The reason it was chosen was for its overall quality, the fact that it is very popular, and primarily because it was a team effort, rather than the work of a single mapper.

 

If there were team-members interested in collaborating on a mission that was more newb-friendly, I'd be open to that and happy to participate.

[grayman]

If there were team-members interested in collaborating on a mission that was more newb-friendly, I'd be open to that and happy to participate.

 

Perhaps the training mission could be used as the architectural template for a mission.

 

A new player would be familiar with it, so that would take some of the newbie-edge off.

 

I'm sure that map has a story to tell.

[Springheel]

That's a possibility. I was thinking something quite small and straightforward, like the TDS training mission, but without the glowing footsteps. Something about the size of Thief's Den or Too Late.

[wesp5]

Perhaps the training mission could be used as the architectural template for a mission.

 

Good idea! The different areas could be rearranged to be played in a certain order with the AI section last and a final "Mission completed" message at the end too ! As I wrote elsewhere, I was annoyed right from the start that the training mission couldn't be completed on the mission list...

[Viktoria]

Hey, hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but you guys really seem to be taking this all a bit too personally. I don't think anyone over there is saying TDM sucks, or TDM isn't a Thief like experience, or anything derogatory like that. At least that's not the way I took it. It's just that TDM is such a hard thing to define, and put a tag on. There's toolkits, SDKs, level editors, game engines, and full-blown retail products. Everyone out there probably has an array of definitions for each. TDM is unique in that the game content is (for the most part) not created by the same people who created the engine and the mechanics. It's all very unique, there's really nothing around like it at all. That confuses people.

 

Most people who say TDM isn't a game are thinking of it as an editor or toolkit. It's like saying the Source Engine or UDK isn't a game. They're thinking, well if you just had The Dark Mod, but no user levels, there wouldn't be anything to play. They just don't know what to classify it as. But that doesn't mean they're saying anything bad about it.

 

Does that make sense?

Yes, this makes perfect sense, Brethren. Thank you.

 

___

This thread seems full of that "TDM is not a game" attitude (generally from the mods who are trying to salvage the reputation of Thief, it seems from casual reading).

http://forums.eidosg...d.php?p=1995148

Firstly, the official forum thread is not full of said attitude... it is full of diverse opinions from different people; just like in this thread.

Your thread title asks "Is TDM a Game?"... so there is clearly uncertainty; so no different to the questions and answers being put forward on the official forum, surely.

Secondly, there is no attempt by the mods to "salvage the reputation of Thief". This makes absolutely no sense as there isn't reason for them to care one way or the other.

Individuals who happen to be 'mods' are not on the Eidos payroll; they are merely fans of the game(s) like yourself, with their own likes/dislikes, like yourself.

The boring truth is that there is no conspiracy theory... not sure why some people insist on believing there is.

 

As for the personal attacks/hyperbole/nonsense in this thread; best ignored I guess.

Just a shame it is sanctioned by "admin". I was hoping TDM forum would remain a significant notch higher than others out there... but clearly I expected too much.

[Vae]

I think this thread should be titled "TDM is a Game", since any knowlegable and rational person knows that to be true.

 

Also, many here like myself know of your vested interest, despite your lies and misdeeds...so you will never be able to dupe the community into thinking otherwise.

 

Despite your despicable attacks, manipulations, and lies, the TDM forum embodies a much higher standard than that over-policed, naysayer-deleting, intellectually-dishonest Eidos forum.

 

So do everyone a favor, and take yourself and your corrupt motivations back to that poor excuse of a forum.

[grayman]

Your thread title asks "Is TDM a Game?"... so there is clearly uncertainty; so no different to the questions and answers being put forward on the official forum, surely.

 

I don't think you can conclude from the thread title that there's "clearly uncertainty".

 

Whether people see TDM as a pillar, a rope, a tree branch, a wall, a solid pipe, or a hand fan, behind the curtain it's a game. It's the same setup as any game development shop: the devs work on the back end, mappers work on the front end, and players play the results.

[Viktoria]

I don't think you can conclude from the thread title that there's "clearly uncertainty".

Fair enough... but it is a question; so I figured that was the case.

 

Whether people see TDM as a pillar, a rope, a tree branch, a wall, a solid pipe, or a hand fan, behind the curtain it's a game. It's the same setup as any game development shop: the devs work on the back end, mappers work on the front end, and players play the results.

Absolutely... and I said as much in the official forum thread. It was agreed by the majority that TDM is both a game and a toolkit... as per TDM's own FAQs.

[AluminumHaste]

Secondly, there is no attempt by the mods to "salvage the reputation of Thief". This makes absolutely no sense

 

 

Exactly, that's what I'm saying, what's left to salvage?

[Viktoria]

Exactly, that's what I'm saying, what's left to salvage?

LOL.

[Vae]

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1995204&postcount=36

 

The Dark Mod itself is not a game so I must exclude it.

[Airship Ballet]

I think this thread should be titled "TDM is a Game", since any knowlegable and rational person knows that to be true.

 

Also, many here like myself know of your vested interest, despite your lies and misdeeds...so you will never be able to dupe the community into thinking otherwise.

 

Despite your despicable attacks, manipulations, and lies, the TDM forum embodies a much higher standard than that over-policed, naysayer-deleting, intellectually-dishonest Eidos forum.

 

So do everyone a favor, and take yourself and your corrupt motivations back to that poor excuse of a forum.

 

Damn, Vae, I'm always with you until you go all Braveheart.

[AluminumHaste]

LOL.

 

[Vae]

...This is hilarious! Edited March 19, 2014 by Vae

[Viktoria]

A bit off topic, sorry, but does anyone know why the "new way of looking at Thief 4" is locked?

There's quite a few deleted posts in there; so not sure if I'm just late for the party and missed the reason why it was locked.

[AluminumHaste]

The person who posted them decided to delete them for some reason. It's a temp lock to let people calm down and stop soap boxing (whatever that means).