Blackjacking hit detection

[At0mic]

What's the basic hit detection logic for the blackjack? I ask because when it comes to blackjacking someone, it seems like it gets more random the more armor the AI wears. If I run up and hit a dude with the blackjack who's wearing normal clothes (no armor), he drops like a sack of potatoes regardless of whether it was a direct head shot or at the torso. If they're wearing full plate armor and one of those helmets with a slitted faceplate then they're impossible to blackjack, which makes sense and seem to be made specifically to force ghosting in certain missions.

 

It's the guys who have either partial armor (chainmail around the shoulders, or just a metal hat but no extra metal armor) which seem to be a case where I'm not confident of a 100% successful hit. I've done save scumming to test and sometimes it seems like only a frontal or side hit will take someone down, but even then the same repeated hit won't always work from one save to another. Note that I'm making accurate (to me) hits on their head, not torso shots. Is there an element of randomization added to the game logic that determines the success of a hit against an armored AI... or do I just suck and need some pointers?

Edited April 1, 2014 by At0mic

[Springheel]

The armour on the body makes no difference at all to the blackjack. It's only the helmet that matters.

[RJFerret]

The suggestion I've seen and it seems to help is to aim for the back of their neck.

[AluminumHaste]

Have you seen my video?

 

[At0mic]

Have you seen my video?

I have now!

Edited April 2, 2014 by At0mic

[wesp5]

It's only the helmet that matters.

 

And their alert state. I'm still not lucky that within a second of hearing something, blackjacking someone wearing a helmet becomes impossible! This is unrealistic in my opinion. A good hit on the head should work in any case and the alert state should make it just more difficult to get behind them, not magically rendering them invincible! An exception could be the guards with swords drawn and searching because they move kind of crouched so blackjacking them would be difficult,

Edited April 7, 2014 by wesp5

[chakkman]

I'm having a hard time with the blackjacking too atm. IMO, it's a combination of too much sensitivity of the A.I. (i mean, frankly, play Thief 1 & 2, and you'll see that the guards are a LOT less aware, even on moderate settings in TDM, they hear and see way better), and the too small hit zone of guards wearing helmets. Also a problem is that most map makers tend to set A.I. routes without the A.I. resting in one place for a couple of seconds, which makes it damn hard, because if you follow them with the necessary speed to blackjack them, they most likely will hear you, because you're making too much noise. Also a thing that i'm asking myself is why a guard which is alerted shouldn't be able to get blackjacked from behing. Realistically, it makes no sense to me, as the impact would be the same. I know that it also has been like that in the original Thief's, but the way i see it, TDM didn't copy other things which made no sense, so why copy that?

 

Anyway, what i want to say is that the original Thief's already had been considered as difficult by most of the games press, and TDM imo is even much harder, so for beginners, who most likely will be blackjacking more than experienced players, it will be quite difficult to get started. A sign for that is also that threads like these pop up quite frequently here. Though i find things like not being able to knock out guards wearing the elite guard helmet is a nice feature, i think the blackjacking could be improved in the mentioned departments. And the overall awareness of the A.I. could be lowered a bit, it just seems silly when they turn their head around by any tweet.

Edited April 7, 2014 by chk772

[Springheel]

The next update will include a hearing slider for people who want dumber AI.

[grayman]

The next update will include a hearing slider for people who want dumber AI.

 

How timely! I just committed the feature change.

 

TDM AI are available in all sorts of flavors now, from Village Idiot to ADHD.

[chakkman]

The next update will include a hearing slider for people who want dumber AI.

Seriously? Btw, i wouldn't call it "dumber", just less aware. The way it is now, the A.I. seems to notice almost everything. Didn't play around with the awareness option in the settings yet, as i always left it on the default "forgiving" setting, but i don't even wanna know how it is on hard...

Edited April 7, 2014 by chk772

[wesp5]

TDM AI are available in all sorts of flavors now, from Village Idiot to ADHD.

 

This is great, but it doesn't really fix the illogical reaction of them suddenly getting invincible to blackjacking. Wouldn't it be much easier to just remove that and make the game make more sense and be easier for beginners at the same time? After all beginners wouldn't know what effect these sliders have until they failed blackjacking a lot anyway...

Edited April 7, 2014 by wesp5

[RJFerret]

Admittedly I never played other Thief games, but why would you say illogical to become invincible to blackjacking? If someone takes a swing at me, and doesn't take me out on that first one, I'm alerted to their presence, plan, and defend myself accordingly, they don't get that opportunity again.

 

Gaining the upper hand, having initiative, first move advantage, all of these things relate to exactly this, that an unaware opponent is easier to overcome than one paying attention to you.

 

I absolutely disagree, and feel it's completely logical.

 

Similarly if it's just another night like dozens before for a patrolling guard, they might not be paying much attention, but when someone they trust says to watch out, as an intruder has been sneaking about, well, you pull your weapon, look around and check over your shoulder more frequently, probing the dark corners with your eyes, etc.

 

It's not just logical, it's behavior any child playing tag exhibits! ;-)

[chakkman]

But it isn't logical, if the guard has his back on you, is alerted with a sword in his hand, but is invincible to getting blackjacked from behind. No matter how alerted you are, you'll never be able to be invincible against that. Not even from the side, or from the front, if you don't see it coming. And even if the guard sees it coming, i haven't yet seen a guard dodging my blackjack so far...

[New Horizon]

It's a gameplay concession guys, plain and simple. It only happens for guards with helmets and since it has been a core gameplay mechanic since the Mod's inception, I don't think it's going to go anywhere.

 

The option to tone down both hearing and vision in the next release should make a difference since the AI won't be as easily alerted, allowing the player a wider window of opportunity to land a successful blackjack.

 

If that's still not satisfactory, players can freely open up the pk4's and experiment with the settings in order to turn off such things if they really can't stand them.

[SteveL]

But it isn't logical, if the guard has his back on you, is alerted with a sword in his hand, but is invincible to getting blackjacked from behind. No matter how alerted you are, you'll never be able to be invincible against that.

 

I've never noticed a realism problem with the setup... helmeted guards are only ever vulnerable to a strike at the neck just below the helmet, and when they draw swords, they stoop in a defensive posture while still holding their heads up to face forward, so there's no neck exposed any more. I believe those without helmets are never invulnerable, which would make sense too.

[chakkman]

Hm, just took a look at the Wiki. http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=The_Dark_Mod_Gameplay#Blackjacking It always seemed to me like you only could blackjack guards without helmet, when they were not alerted, but it seems like you can actually blackjack guards with or without helmet from behind when they're alerted, but not from the side, or from the front. (wonder why it never works when i try it ) Doesn't exactly make sense either, but ok, knowing that now, i can live with it. Could be a little more obvious though, but i can understand when you say you don't want to change the game mechanics in that way. I think the ability to set the A.I.'s hearing and vision is a great enhancement already.

Edited April 7, 2014 by chk772

[wesp5]

I've never noticed a realism problem with the setup... helmeted guards are only ever vulnerable to a strike at the neck just below the helmet, and when they draw swords, they stoop in a defensive posture while still holding their heads up to face forward, so there's no neck exposed any more.

 

I have no issues with that, but even before drawing their swords, helmeted guards become invincible to blackjacking the second they hear something, even if this will not make them draw their swords. This makes no sense! I'm not for changing the mechanism once the sword is drawn or players are fighting with their blackjack, but what about the issue above? It isn't even written in the wiki, there are only relaxed and weapon drawn states mentioned, so this could easily be changed so slightly alerted (or whatever it is called) is handled like relaxed and not like full alerted...

[New Horizon]

I have no issues with that, but even before drawing their swords, helmeted guards become invincible to blackjacking the second they hear something, even if this will not make them draw their swords. This makes no sense! I'm not for changing the mechanism once the sword is drawn or players are fighting with their blackjack, but what about the issue above? It isn't even written in the wiki, there are only relaxed and weapon drawn states mentioned, so this could easily be changed so slightly alerted (or whatever it is called) is handled like relaxed and not like full alerted...

 

That doesn't sound right. By design, the guards with helmets are only supposed to be immune when their swords are drawn. If anything else is happening then that would be a bug. Have you tested this with blackjack debug turned on or something? Going to have to look into this because that's not how it was working when I tested it.

[grayman]

Here are the rules implemented in the code ("xxxxxx" is an AI spawnarg):

 

1. Civilians can be knocked out at any time, from any angle, at any alert level.

 

2. If the AI's alert level is at least "ko_alert_immune_state", and "ko_alert_immune" is TRUE, the AI is immune.

 

3. If the AI has a sheathed weapon or no weapon, and their alert level is below "ko_alert_immune_state", a KO can occur from any direction.

 

4. If the AI is ready to do combat (usually a drawn weapon), and their "ko_alert_immune_state" is 4 (helmet), they're immune, even if they're at a lower alert level.

 

5. If the AI is ready to do combat (usually a drawn weapon), and their "ko_alert_immune_state" is 5 (no helmet), and their current alert level is below "ko_alert_immune_state", a KO can occur only from behind.

 

6. Finally, check the KO angles and determine if the blow has landed in the right place.

 

 

We can create a spreadsheet for every AI and determine where he's immune and where he isn't, but that's a lot of work. I'd rather see a concrete example of bad behavior (preferably from someone who's Real Good at blackjacking).

[AluminumHaste]

I haven't had this problem.

 

Edit: would like to see video of people having trouble.

[Springheel]

I have no issues with that, but even before drawing their swords, helmeted guards become invincible to blackjacking the second they hear something, even if this will not make them draw their swords. This makes no sense!

 

If that's actually happening, it's a bug. I've never noticed it. In fact, you watch plenty of Let's Play videos where people alert helmeted guards enough that they actually stop in their tracks and still get KO'd from behind.

 

+1 on a video. People's perception of what is happening is frequently different from what is actually happening.

[wesp5]

If that's actually happening, it's a bug.

 

Maybe it is something similar to what started this thread. It usually happens when I sneak up on a moving guard. I hit him over the head from behind while standing up but when he hears me, he usually says something and turns around with nothing happening. No sword drawn but still imune. I always figured it was because he heard me, maybe the angle wasn't right because he was moving or he was turning?

Edited April 8, 2014 by wesp5

[chakkman]

Same here. I'll try to make a video later. Are there any free good screen recorders which record sound also?

[AluminumHaste]

Fraps is free so it's dxtory

[chakkman]

Yeah, but the free version of Fraps doesn't record sound unfortunately. Oh, and dxtory is payware.

Edited April 8, 2014 by chk772