Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums

No knockouts are a real pain in the...


At0mic

Recommended Posts

I generally play most fan missions on the difficult/hard skill level. On this level the missions are normally challenging but not insurmountable; they generally have high loot requirements which force the player to explore and have a keen eye (which is something I enjoy) and don't allow killing but generally allow knockouts (which is a decent challenge).

 

What I don't like however is when some missions (Lockdown for example) have it so that you can't even blackjack on the medium skill level - you have to play on easy which feels too noobish I suppose (or to my ego anyway), but worse than that, the easy skill level might be missing a lot of objectives you only get on the harder skill levels, which I'd enjoy doing if I didn't have to deal with bloody no-knockout requirements!

 

I don't know about other people, but I prefer to knock people out, dump them in a corner and examine under every rock if I can for interesting things to find/loot. Clearing out an area is the only way I know of how to safely spend time examining a room for lootable paintings (which are impossible to tell from non-lootable paintings from a distance as far as I can tell), or more importantly the occasional hidden readable which I know FM authors love to stick in interesting places. And let's not forget trap doors and hidden buttons. But you only get the the opportunity to search for such cool hidden stuff if people aren't observing you or prone to doing so, hence you conk them out and dump them in a pile 10 bodies high. Not being able to do that really reduces the enjoyment factor for me considerably and I don't like the idea of playing on easy just because I don't like this "pure ghosting" aspect.

 

So, why do people who like non-knockout objectives enjoy them? Do I just need to develop more patience or am I missing something?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It depends.

 

Usually I only knock people out if they're preventing me from getting somewhere or if leaving them standing seems like too much of a risk. If they're fairly easy to sneak past and/or don't seem to pose much of a threat I'll just leave them be.

 

In practice, during an "average" difficulty mission I might knock out a two or three guards. If it's a more difficult mission then probably more, and if it's a fairly easy one I might simply not touch anybody.

 

I find that most missions with no-knockout objectives don't have very difficult guard patrols, as they are pretty much intended to be played that way. They're usually "easy" enough that I probably wouldn't have to touch any of the guards anyway even if the no-knockout objective wasn't there.

 

There are some exceptions though. "The Builder Roads" effectively has a no-knockout objective in that it doesn't give you an blackjack, and its guard patrols were pretty difficult.

I did manage to get through it my first time, but only barely with a lot of close calls:

Edited by Professor Paul1290
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I usually have the mindset well if you can kill anyone on the map it could make things a lot easier. Just one correctly timed arrow to the face and off you go. That's why on medium difficulty I raise the bar to no knockouts and hard mode has no knockouts and no killing. Other than that the objectives remain the same. Its just there so if someone wants a challenge they can.

 

I don't usually plan the mission fully around this but say a guard patrolling the docks is going to be much easier to sneak around/knock out then a fully trained and armored guard who is protecting a nobles mansion.

 

For my second FM though I'm unsure if I will do this as there are other objectives to add difficulty such as "Go and steal this special item from a hard to get place". I think that will be more fun than the old no kill/KO thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I prefer when mapper includes no knock-out objective. For me it has great effect on increasing the atmosphere. One can say that if I prefer not to knock-out anybody, then I simply shouldn't do it and don't need a special objective. Well, during the play I often simply cannot resist the temptation and do things a bit easier for me. And No K.O. as an objective nullify it. Not to mention that such approach makes your exploration more challenging enterprise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did manage to get through it my first time, but only barely with a lot of close calls:

 

That's exactly why mappers do it...it increases the tension if you can't just clear the map of AI (which is pretty easy to do if the mapper doesn't go out of their way to make it difficult). I don't like them much myself...I'd rather see a couple AI who have elite helmets instead, or individual AI you can't KO for story reasons--enough to keep things interesting but it doesn't force you to completely ghost it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A no-knockout (optional) objective is a great way to go for mappers IMO. I do think general difficulty settings should nearly aLWAYs be handled similarly to this:

 

Easy - do whatever you want

Medium - No killing but knockouts are allowed (with optional objective - no knockouts)

Hard - No killing and no knockouts (can also have the no knockouts objective as optional depending on the map/AI routes/map layout/etc.)

 

I agree that if the mapper decides to put something important or required in a well lit, well guarded area, the AI pathing and layout need to support that strategy. This seems to be something that would come up in Beta Testing and brought to light though, so I would think these issues would be resolved prior to map release based on player feedback.

 

Killing people obviously isn't a good thing and for a master thief its pretty much a do-not-ever unless you have a specific target that is in need of some eyelid maintenance.

 

Knocking guards out does make gameplay easier and it does conform to something a master thief would/could do in most all of our FM scenarios.

 

I do relish the challenge of a brightly lit picture/safe/jewel pouch with a guard standing stagnant close to it. It offers up a logistical challenge of timing and distraction. Lets not forget that even a stationary guard eyeing a prize can still be moved with audible environmental player actions.

 

I've had some of the greatest experiences actually performing this in-game and when you can pull off the result, its extremely rewarding and encouraging to the player.

 

Also, I've had a few instances where I just don't see any other way and I'll clear a route in my mind and create a plan of action. Rouse the guard by directly interacting with them and then sprint my planned route only to double back, grab what I wanted, and then dissappear! So fun.

 

When you take some chances here and there, and yes it does require some quicksaving/loading which many don't like, its interesting to see that once the guard has been distrubed, they don't always return to their post immediately giving the player, sometimes, the opportunity to accomplish what they're trying to achieve.

 

On the topic of quicksaving/loading for those that are prone to disagree with that particular mechanic of basically abusing the ability to keep resetting yourself. If you only use it in 2-3 missions and do it obssively, not just to quicksave/load but to try different things and see how the AI respond, it can be very insightful and give the player knowledge on how the game mechanics function and also provide them with tools to use in other missions where they are iron-manning the mission or the like.

 

It would be extremely difficult, I would think, for an unexperienced player to come in to TDM and start iron-manning missions start to finish. They have no knowledge of how the game mechanics function, what constitutes "being spotted" and "not being spotted", how the AI react to this situation, that situation, or a combination of situations that the player can set up.

 

An experienced player only gets that way through trial and error and the fastest way to trial and error is with quicksave/load. After you feel you've garnered enough knowledge about the rules that govern the AI, then you'll find yourself quicksaving/loading less and less. You can learn way more in a compressed time space using that technique.

 

For what its worth, these comments aren't necessarily aimed at you, At0mic. They're just some things that have aided my own progression in TDM and added to my enjoyment of the game. When you try lots of different ways in each room, it can lead to hilarious interactions and open doors in your logic that you hadn't previously come across.

 

It does break immersion but it is lots of fun and a great way to learn. I think we all do it, but I know there are those players out there that are very staunch and strict in their game-play which is the only reason I mention it.

 

I am too in many regards. I much prefer to play as "the" thief, master, no saving/reloading generally at all, using my wits to convert situations to my favor. You just can't get there without experiencing both sides of the coin first. Sorry if I went a bit off-topic there. :ph34r:

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My poll on play-styles showed about half players avoid knocking out generally.

 

I'd simply load the map into Dark Radiant, open Objectives, click optional for the no knockout one, save and enjoy playing how you want! :-)

"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

Link to comment
Share on other sites

KOing every single AI is for EASY difficulty, because.. well.. it is dead easy! ;)

 

Having a limited amount of KOs increase the challenge, hence MEDIUM/HARD difficulty for three allowed KOs. The player is required to avoid KOs and think whether remove an AI or not.

 

I usually have only the core objectives for EASY difficulty.

MEDIUM imposes limits: no kill, no more than 3 KOS.

HARD is hard: no kills, no KOs. For the expert players who love the challenge.

 

Forget the ego. Play with skill level that suit you.

  • Like 1

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heh, playing on hard but wanting to KO everything? Time to start cloning that proguard everywhere...

 

But seriously, what's the difference between hard and easy if you KO everyone? Noone can see what difficulty you finished the game on unless you tell them, and typically the difficulties have meant little more than loot total difference (if you still allow KO/Kill)

Intel Sandy Bridge i7 2600K @ 3.4ghz stock clocks
8gb Kingston 1600mhz CL8 XMP RAM stock frequency
Sapphire Radeon HD7870 2GB FLeX GHz Edition @ stock @ 1920x1080

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dunno, I really like how it was done in Thief. If I'm not mistaken, the original games mostly allowed kills even on expert (the goal was "kill no innocents" most of the time) and relied on complex objectives / loot goals to increase the difficulty. I don't like forced ghosting unless it really makes a lot of sense and the mission is very special, the problem is not so much with not being able to KO every AI around but to be able to do it sparingly on a mostly-ghost run, which is how I like to play along with expert goals.

 

I like missions where only a limited amounts of KOs is allowed on expert.

Edited by Briareos H
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I usually try to ghost missions (although never so hard as to make the experience frustrating), but no-KO objectives should be used conservatively.

 

Knocking out enemies is the default mode of thiefy gameplay, and removing or limiting it is a pretty serious restriction on the player's chances of moving through and interacting with the level. (Strict ghosting is even more difficult, but no-KO is already a de facto light ghosting objective.) IMO, level designers can provide interesting stealth challenges even while allowing knockouts. If there is a story reason to avoid blackjacking half the neighbourhood, that's okay, and it can enhance tension in the right circumstances, but it is generally better to strive for openness and let players decide their own playing style.

 

Also, I sometimes want to play the assassin and kill some people. Please give me that option. :ph34r:

Edited by Melan
  • Like 4

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The usual mission objective in the classic Thief parts was "You are a thief, not a murderer. Don't kill anyone.", which pretty much makes sense to me, as the punishment for murdering people would probably to get yourself hanged or beheaded, while for theft, or knocking out people, you might get away with your life. :P I'm pretty much with the OP, having mission objectives like "Don't K.O. anyone" hinder the players freedom to play the way he likes. While i understand for some people ghosting will be the most challenging way to play, you can't speak for everyone. And while, as i said, not killing anyone perfectly makes sense, not K.O.'ing anyone doesn't imo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting responses.

 

Confession time - despite being a fan of TDM, unlike a lot of folks here I'm not a Thief veteran. I've played the demo of the second Thief game, played a bit of the full version of Thief 3 and nothing else. When it comes to stealthy games my favs have been things like the Deus Ex series and more recently Dishonored. In those games stealth is important, but you're normally well armed and capable enough to deal with the AI if they do encounter you, whereas in TDM a single AI encounter might be utterly lethal if you can't dispatch them quickly enough. Also, most other games involving stealth are a lot more forgiving in terms of the AI detecting you than TDM is.

 

Given these experiences, most such games just encourage you to deal with an enemy and move on. I appreciate the fact that the idea of Thief and TDM is that if you're suppose to be such a great thief, a great thief should be completely invisible and no-one should have even known they were around, which means (among other things) zero knockouts. I haven't really played any games which push this idea apart from TDM so I'm not used to it, hence don't particularly like forced avoidance of AI unless I can physically take them out, even unconsciously. So there - I have to harden up apparently. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to harden up apparently.

 

Not necessarily...the majority of missions don't have KO restrictions at anything other than the hardest difficulty levels, and lots have none at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And those that do have such objectives are designed with fewer AI, or easier ways around them, since they are taking away a method of dealing with them.

"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A no-knockout (optional) objective is a great way to go for mappers IMO. I do think general difficulty settings should nearly aLWAYs be handled similarly to this:

 

Easy - do whatever you want

Medium - No killing but knockouts are allowed (with optional objective - no knockouts)

Hard - No killing and no knockouts (can also have the no knockouts objective as optional depending on the map/AI routes/map layout/etc.)

I agree with Lux. If a mission is a ghost only, generally I won't play it. I like the option of knockout; if need be. Killing is out of the question however unless the map is a hit mission. I like to be as stealthy as possible, but to be a complete ghost mission; forget it. I guess you can go to noclip for that. LOL

Quando omni flunkus moritati" ("When all else fails, play dead")

Halloween Contest Winner 2014

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think ghost-only mission objectives only make sense in context with the mission's purpose. If you're just going to steal something, there's nothing wrong about incapacitating a few guards. But if you're supposed to plant evidence, case a place for a future mission, or infiltrate a friendly area without losing trust, then the mission needs to be a failure if you leave hard evidence of your infiltration like being spotted or hurting people.

 

Even in the Thief trilogy, where the protagonist is a total egomaniac who avoids murder just because it's "more professional" rather than out of morality, ghosting objectives only exist at times when it really is needed, not just based on a difficulty setting. And actually, there is one mission in Thief 2 where I think ghosting should logically be mandatory, but isn't. (Framed) And there is also a mission where ghosting would actually be harmful. In Kidnap, your target always has bodyguards. If you knock out both the target and his entourage, you get a nice head start and you can exit without anyone realizing what you have done. If you refuse to knock out anyone other than your target, the bodyguards obviously know that something is wrong. Ghosting is a very binary thing. Either you don't hurt anyone, or you might as well knock out everyone, because one piece of evidence is enough to prove something.

 

So in missions where leaving hard evidence of outside interference would have serious consequences or completely negate the goal of the mission, ghosting should be required. Otherwise, well... it could always be a nice bonus objective that pops up when you finish a mission ;)

Edited by Plutonia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recent Status Updates

    • Petike the Taffer  »  DeTeEff

      I've updated the articles for your FMs and your author category at the wiki. Your newer nickname (DeTeEff) now comes first, and the one in parentheses is your older nickname (Fieldmedic). Just to avoid confusing people who played your FMs years ago and remember your older nickname. I've added a wiki article for your latest FM, Who Watches the Watcher?, as part of my current updating efforts. Unless I overlooked something, you have five different FMs so far.
      · 0 replies
    • Petike the Taffer

      I've finally managed to log in to The Dark Mod Wiki. I'm back in the saddle and before the holidays start in full, I'll be adding a few new FM articles and doing other updates. Written in Stone is already done.
      · 4 replies
    • nbohr1more

      TDM 15th Anniversary Contest is now active! Please declare your participation: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22413-the-dark-mod-15th-anniversary-contest-entry-thread/
       
      · 0 replies
    • JackFarmer

      @TheUnbeholden
      You cannot receive PMs. Could you please be so kind and check your mailbox if it is full (or maybe you switched off the function)?
      · 1 reply
    • OrbWeaver

      I like the new frob highlight but it would nice if it was less "flickery" while moving over objects (especially barred metal doors).
      · 4 replies
×
×
  • Create New...