Objective Making

[John D.]

How will this be implemented in the Dark Mod? I use TOW to make my objectives in my T2 FM's, will there be something similar in this mod so making various objectives is a simple process?

[Drakon]

And please please please do not make T3 style objectives. I'm assuming you wont. But I will beg, regardless.

[sparhawk]

What do you mean "T3 style objectives"?

 

We are creating a toolset. This means we just provide the framework, but how it is employed in a specific map is up the the FM author.

[Renzatic]

D3 already has a somewhat rich objective system already, all we'll have to is tailor it more to our needs and make it a bit more complex and you'll be able to do tons with it.

[Ishtvan]

Out of curiosity, what specifically don't you like about the T3 system for putting in objectives? If we know what the annoying features are, maybe we can try to avoid them when we code our objectives based on D3's system.

[New Horizon]

Out of curiosity, what specifically don't you like about the T3 system for putting in objectives? If we know what the annoying features are, maybe we can try to avoid them when we code our objectives based on D3's system.

I think it was more the way they were presented than the actual objectives themselves. The objectives in T3 were more "cookie cutter" in presentation and always the same per mission and per difficulty level. I think they're looking to have a system that is more customizable than...find 90% of the loot. While it's the same thing to say...find 5000 in loot, it doesn't give away how much loot is actually left in a mission and leaves the door open for some surprise finds.

 

We have discussed this in the past and I think it's safe to say that we will have an objectives system that is more Thief 1 and 2 inspired.

[Ishtvan]

Ah okay, I thought he meant the actual mechanics of putting in objectives in T3ED scripting or something.

[Macsen]

I think they're looking to have a system that is more customizable than...find 90% of the loot.

Yes, we should have the option to find 85% or 95% of the loot also.

[New Horizon]

Yes, we should have the option to find 85% or 95% of the loot also.

:lol: BAD MACSEN!!! OUT! OOOUUUTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Macsen]

What we need is total freedom, but some kind of suggestion system to keep the FM makers on course, starring our own lovable mascot oDDity.

 

[oDDity]

I resent the implication that I'm some sort of realism obsessed, drooling pervert.

..but. I think we should keep those two options in, in case someone else might like them.

[TazmanianDevil]

I think it was more the way they were presented than the actual objectives themselves.  The objectives in T3 were more cookie cutter in presentation and always the same per mission and per difficulty level.  I think they're looking to have a system that is more customizable than...find 90% of the loot.  While it's the same thing to say...find 5000 in loot, it doesn't give away how much loot is actually left in a mission and leaves the door open for some surprise finds.

I agree. I thought the objectives in TDS were boring. "Find 90% of the loot and 3 of the whoopity-frigin-do special items". I prefer to have objectives with a more concrete feel and less of an "automatically generated because you're playing a game" feeling. I think "Find 2000 in loot, 200 in gems, super painting X, chalice Y and artificact Z" is much more interesting.

 

I also missed having secrets and I really loved that sound you get when you find them. I can't remember if you guys have said this before, but will your toolset and your FM have secrets?

[sparhawk]

Yes. Secrets will be supported.

[Domarius]

Short answer - we will aim to create something as amazingly flexible as T2, and not as restrictive as T3.

 

Remember, the reason alot of people like T2 over T3 is because T2 did a lot of things right.

[FishFace]

Yeah, the 'canned' objectives for T2 were done much better, mainly because they also varied from mission to mission. You didn't always have a 'get x amount of loot' even on the highest difficulty, and when you did, at least at the briefing point, it was dressed up with some other amusing stuff, then condensed back for the main objectives screen. Same with the 'don't kill <living things>' - it'd be nice to bring back the sarcastic way these were presented at the start of the mission.

Obviously, the actual sarcasm would be the FM designer's own decision, but the ability to have long/short ones...

[oDDity]

Well, as Bunny said, TDS was a game primarily aimed at 12 year old xbox players, not MIT grads. What did you expect?

[Domarius]

Fish, I hope you don't mean "canned" objectives as in they are all of a various type, just renamed.

 

ConVict (Conditions for Victory) is the most flexible objective system I've ever seen. You can pretty much do anything with it. I've made posts about it in the design forum.

[FishFace]

Fish, I hope you don't mean "canned" objectives as in they are all of a various type, just renamed.

Well, there were objectives that were exactly the same in Thief 2 - "don't kill anyone" "don't kill any innocents" "get x amount of gold" But they still managed to be more varied than those in TDS.

[AtariThief]

I have a question. Will we still be able to steal all the food and objects. And will we be able to break any objects? Ok two questions...

[sparhawk]

We try to physicalize TDM as much as possible. And we have some plans I think might turn out very nice using the physics.

[Vadrosaul]

Well, there were objectives that were exactly the same in Thief 2 - "don't kill anyone" "don't kill any innocents" "get x amount of gold" But they still managed to be more varied than those in TDS.

I feel that those were more like rules of thumb as a master thief: "Don't kill anyone unless self defense", "Steal as much as possible"

 

Objectives were more specific: "Steal THIS item", "Find this letter and put it HERE"

[NeonsStyle]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE:::: NO TIME BASES OBJECTIVES> I Absolutely hate limitiations of that sort put on me in a level that determine when I want to finish it. Also Please, don't make it end when the obj is reached... make an exit point I have to go to when I want to finish... that allows me to explore... I think the best thing about thief, is the freedom you get on a map, and I absolutely abhor programmers controlling me... well i hate anyone trying to control me lol... least of all programmers lol...

 

Venus

[Ishtvan]

Since we're making a toolset, we will probably include the option of time based objectives. Just because one person doesn't like them doesn't mean we should ban all FM authors from doing that ever. Some people like them, and they make sense in some contexts. Even in Thief, if you fell too far behind people you were supposed to trail I think you failed the mission, that's sort've time-based in itself.

 

We want to support as many options as possible in the toolset. Playing FM's is a fre market, so if you don't like time based objectives, don't play FM's that have 'em.

[Dram]

As far as I understood the way we would do "timed" missions in our campaign would be to have the sun rise, thus providing hardly any shadows, which would not go "fuck you, you failed cos you're a snail" but sort of would make it easy as piss to find you.

[Ishtvan]

I don't think that's been decided at all, it was just mentioned in discussion. Also toolset vs. campaign. We probably will want to give FM authors the option to do timed objectives in the toolset. Whether we do them for our campaign is completely undecided as we haven't made the maps yet.