Movable vs immobile readables

[grayman]

Readable books and scrolls should be the type that can go into inventory. Players should not be forced to read a book without being able to move it, unless there is some obvious reason why the book can't be moved (it's chained up or is too heavy or whatever).

 

Then why were immobile readables created?

 

As a mapper, and considering that we don't provide a note system in TDM, and that most players play in the dark and wouldn't want to have to jot things down, I've tried to follow these rules:

 

1 - If there's a clue in a readable, make the readable mobile, so the player can refer to it later.

 

2 - If there's no clue in a readable, make the readable immobile, so the player doesn't have to clutter up his inventory.

 

I've never considered whether it was dangerous to read an immobile readable. If the threat of danger was generally considered detrimental to reading immobiles, then TDM should have been designed to freeze time while the player is reading.

[RJFerret]

Readable books and scrolls should be the type that can go into inventory. Players should not be forced to read a book without being able to move it, unless there is some obvious reason why the book can't be moved (it's chained up or is too heavy or whatever).

 

Oh yeah, good point, most books and scrolls should not go into inventory. ... readables (only those required for completing the map not easily remembered should go into inventory)...

 

Edited out stuff nonsensical in this thread.

[Springheel]

Actually, I shouldn't have mentioned that readable one in this thread, since it's more of a good mapping tip than a convention...unless you handle it the way gray man does, which has some merit.

 

I'll move the other stuff to its own thread when I'm not on my phone.

[grayman]

That was odd. I started this thread?

[Springheel]

Then why were immobile readables created?

 

Good question. When I came up with the idea of readables not stopping time, it was always with the intention of readables being something the player could carry with them and read in a safe spot. I was against static readables from the start (other than posted notices and the like) but some people at the time were worried about movables getting knocked around and lost--a concern that seems pretty silly, given that important readables could always be bound to something if there really was a way they could be lost.

 

The impetus to raise this as an issue came from a specific instance in Window of Opportunity. There is a small, lit room that an AI comes into every half minute or so, with two readables. The scroll goes into inventory, but the book did not, forcing me to try and read it in short bursts while constantly watching for the AI to come in. While it certainly created tension, it was a completely artificial tension IMO...I could see no particular reason why I shouldn't have been able to carry the book in the same way I could carry the nearby scroll.

 

 

I've never considered whether it was dangerous to read an immobile readable. If the threat of danger was generally considered detrimental to reading immobiles, then TDM should have been designed to freeze time while the player is reading.

 

As I said above, the system was not designed with the idea of having readables that force a player to stand in a compromising position in order to read them. Static readables exist, so we can't just get rid of them, but my opinion is that mappers should not use them unless there is a good reason.

 

I've tried to follow these rules:

1 - If there's a clue in a readable, make the readable mobile, so the player can refer to it later.

2 - If there's no clue in a readable, make the readable immobile, so the player doesn't have to clutter up his inventory.

 

I had forgotten about that. That might be a worthwhile convention to follow.

 

Why is cluttering inventory an issue with readables? Unlike keys, you can drop all readables, can't you?

[Springheel]

That was odd. I started this thread?

 

No, but I didn't want to move my entire comment as only the last couple lines were on this subject.

[RJFerret]

Um, my post was about glass and was in the "TDM Mapping Conventions" thread so when new mappers search for such they could find the info.

 

It has nothing to do with readables.

 

I also joked about the name of that thread, which makes no sense here.

 

If you'd like me to take the aside (the postscript) out and post that separately here, that might make sense, otherwise let me know to post a new post back in that thread with a copy of my post please.

 

Wait, nevermind, no point in you doing more work.

[RJFerret]

The impetus to raise this as an issue came from a specific instance in Window of Opportunity. There is a small, lit room that an AI comes into every half minute or so, with two readables. The scroll goes into inventory, but the book did not, forcing me to try and read it in short bursts while constantly watching for the AI to come in. While it certainly created tension, it was a completely artificial tension IMO...I could see no particular reason why I shouldn't have been able to carry the book in the same way I could carry the nearby scroll.

 

That was player choice. I spent a lot of time calibrating the design so you could read the book in a semi-safe shadow (with plenty of audio warning).

 

At the time I didn't know about alerts for missing items I don't believe, it wouldn't be logical for a thief to take an item from an area he knows a fidgety AI frequents, to discover her personal diary is missing. Hence choosing a fixed book.

 

In the future I might design such so if the book were taken, it would alert the AI--the only bad part of that would be the player not knowing until the AI showed up and freaked out.

[Sotha]

Yep, mappers should avoid static readables... but they do have their place.

 

Put all readables with multiple pages as moveable.... But have the important ones to have an absence alert. That way the player can steal them, read them in a safe place and then put them back.

 

But then the mapper should communicate that this book is important and AI WILL NOTICE if it is gone. How? It should be obvious that if the book is someones diary and it is the central item on a desk, it is important and will be missed. If it is tucked in a bookshelf or scattered among other books, its absence will not be noticed.

 

If the readable has single page that is readable with the spyglass from a distance, and contains some flavor poems, a notice or a shopping list, or is a wall note, it doesn't need to be moveable.

 

I think it is more about circumstances, than mechanical "clue or no clue" decision.

[buck28]

I've never considered whether it was dangerous to read an immobile readable. If the threat of danger was generally considered detrimental to reading immobiles, then TDM should have been designed to freeze time while the player is reading.

 

 

I agree with Grayman. I enjoyed reading immobile books, some lengthy and humorous. I knew I could enjoy reading it, with no fear of being caught or getting killed. Why would I want to take an open book with me anyway? Especially a large one? I'm a thief, not a librarian. I find it annoying, that TDM was designed without the freeze time while reading feature. I won't take anything with me, unless I can sell it or use it. But for those who must ghost every mission, I can see why you would want to carry everything with you to read later. No disrespect to anyone intended. That's just my opinion.

Edited June 26, 2014 by buck28

[Digi]

Sounds like most of this boils down to "consider the context." As long as it works in a mission, I'm not sure rules for it are necessarily needed. But that's me.

 

I agree with Grayman. I enjoyed reading immobile books, some lengthy and humorous. I knew I could enjoy reading it, with no fear of being caught or getting killed. Why would I want to take an open book with me anyway? Especially a large one? I'm a thief, not a librarian. I find it annoying, that TDM was designed without the freeze time while reading feature. I won't take anything with me, unless I can sell it or use it. But for those who must ghost every mission, I can see why you would want to carry everything with you to read later. No disrespect to anyone intended. That's just my opinion.

 

Non-frozen time is awesome. Heightens tension occasionally, while making the world seem more real. You're more than welcome to disagree, but I think that's one of the coolest small tweaks to TDM over other Thief games.

 

As for immobile readables, it does reduce inventory clutter, and most missions probably shouldn't be balanced specifically for ghosting. I enjoy both types of readable in the right setting.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Digi

[Bikerdude]

1 - If there's a clue in a readable, make the readable mobile, so the player can refer to it later.

2 - If there's no clue in a readable, make the readable immobile, so the player doesn't have to clutter up his inventory.

exactly.

[Springheel]

Why would I want to take an open book with me anyway? Especially a large one? I'm a thief, not a librarian. I find it annoying, that TDM was designed without the freeze time while reading feature

 

You can't really argue realism and then favour freezing time. You're a thief, not a wizard.

 

No one says you have to take the book with you...put it back once you've read it.

[buck28]

. You're a thief, not a wizard

 

LOL. Like I said, no disrespect, just my opinion.

I certainly don't want to have to push around a medieval shopping cart. Bah ha ha ha

[NeonsStyle]

I like the option to be able to add both. One for clues and story, the other for back story. With imovables,

it then comes down to the mapper to give the player either the time, or the darkness to be able to

read it.

 

So far I've not had an issue with this, as almost always you can get the time to read, even if it might take

you a couple of goes at it. I still prefer that, as it's more realistic. As the player, I deal with everything

the mapper does right or messes up, and it's up to me to work find work arounds.

 

I'm always for more control to player, let them choose. Just if you include imovables, adjust for it.

 

Ven

[demagogue]

For a big book, it might be clever if a mapper set it up so when you frobbed it, there'd be a sound like a page or two being ripped out, and then you just have the pages you need.

[wesp5]

Speaking of books, I just can't help it , I again suggest that unreading a static readable should be possible by using the FROB key again. I never understood why I have to attack a book to close it ! Or has this already been implemented for 2.03?

[SteveL]

Speaking of books, I just can't help it , I again suggest that unreading a static readable should be possible by using the FROB key again. I never understood why I have to attack a book to close it ! Or has this already been implemented for 2.03?

You lost track of your own tracker issue :-)

 

http://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=3746

 

grayman fixed it.

[wesp5]

You lost track of your own tracker issue :-)

 

That's why I asked. Very cool, many thanks!