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What do you think? (Adding details to old models)

renewing models

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#26 stumpy

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 05:46 PM

what about doing some dirty skins for the furniture to look like they've been used, like actually sat on, slept on, etc.

#27 Tels

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 05:47 AM

what about doing some dirty skins for the furniture to look like they've been used, like actually sat on, slept on, etc.


That is definitely a good idea. Most of our sofas, carpets etc. look perfectly clean. In theory, mappers could apply dirt stains, but this is a lot of work.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

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#28 Atheran

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 05:53 AM

That is definitely a good idea. Most of our sofas, carpets etc. look perfectly clean. In theory, mappers could apply dirt stains, but this is a lot of work.


Might be but the alternative is having most of those textures twice. Do you think it's a good idea resource-wide? It's relativelly easy to add stains or dirt in Photoshop but doubling the number of textures might be heavy for the engine to search through.
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#29 Tels

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:23 AM

Might be but the alternative is having most of those textures twice. Do you think it's a good idea resource-wide? It's relativelly easy to add stains or dirt in Photoshop but doubling the number of textures might be heavy for the engine to search through.


That depends. Stains need a texture, too, and even tho the stains usually have lower resolution, you need multiple of them per object to make it look really dirty and thus "good". The engine then has to render multiple passes per sofa.

This is one of the conflicts with the design philosophy in TDM - all textures are designed to be clean, and then to be dirtied later. This is the theoretical sound approach, because then each dirty object or floor can look unique.

However, in praxis it causes an overly clean look of the levels, because mappers never spend enough time to add dirt to everything, because it is very timeconsuming (DR does not have the right tools for it, try to dirty even one or two walls and you see it take ages instead of just "spraycanning dirt on the wall").

I've tried to make "dirty" prefabs for my Swift Mazes levels, but its quite a pain, and if you add multiple random dirt spots on each wall, you end up with thousands of them per map. Fidcal even had some technique where he applied "dark corners" to walls, this looks really good, but again, it needs one decal for each wall, columns and corners and holes even need multiple. Suddenly every wall is rendered twice in the game. Not good for performance.

Most games do it either by giving the mapper really really easy to use dirtying tools, or by dirtying things by default, or by just having used/worn textures by default and if you really need a cleanone, the artist has to make a new one for you. This results in a "used" look by default and is arguable the better end result.

However, I don't want to critize TDM here, and the design desicion has been made years ago and cannot be changed.

Just to give you an example: all our firewalls looked squecky-clean, which was quite unrealistic, esp. if there is a fire burning. A 100% clean fireplace is the exception (freshly build?), but nearly all maps had them. We later added some dirty skins and I've even added porefabs that combine the dirty fireplace with coal, ash and so one.

Theoretically, every mapper was supposed to dirty up each firewall. In praxis, it never happened.

So yes, I'd love to see a new skin for furniture, with light greases and crincles, and it maybe even should be the default. And on top of that a "very old and worn" skin for run-down locations.

Mappers don't have to use the skin, so performance is only impacted if the mapper uses a new and an old sofa in the same map. That's much better than adding 5 stains to each sofa.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#30 Atheran

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:36 AM

So I understand, the dirt stains etc work as layers right? Sorry for the noob question but I have no idea how mappers make things look good :) If so then you're right...
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#31 grayman

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:53 AM

Two comments on the topic of dirt:

1 - As a mapper, I've drawn the boundary between "dirty" furniture and "clean" furniture this way: the rich people have clean furniture, because they have staff to clean it. They get the fancy sofas and tables and chairs. Poor people don't get dirty versions of rich folks' furniture; they get different furniture. They get the simpler beds, the simpler chairs, etc. I think the difference between rich and poor is made along the lines of what furniture the mapper uses, not whether the furniture itself has dirt and stains on it. If I want a dirty version of a fancy sofa, then I'd investigate which textures the sofa uses and create a dirty version and create a new skin. But that would be mission-specific.

2 - While dirtying up a room with the standard dirt patches isn't a problem (though it can take some time), if there's a vast amount of acreage that requires dirt, it pays to create a mission-specific dirty version of the texture to be used on that acreage. For example, the walls of the sewer tunnels in WS3 are a single dirty texture that I made from stock TDM textures. I tinted the brick toward green and added some colored layers of dirt on top of it. That not only guaranteed simplicity when texturing the walls, it guaranteed tiling in all directions.

#32 Tels

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:04 AM

So I understand, the dirt stains etc work as layers right? Sorry for the noob question but I have no idea how mappers make things look good :) If so then you're right...


Yes, dirt stains are patches (with two triangles), that are drawn on top of a texture, and either make it darker, or lighter, or color it (greenish).

And what grayman said: due to the cleanliness of textures, mappers either make new textures or choose the objects carefully.

However, even for the rich people with the cleaning servant, most of our objects are too perfect. There are no creases, no crincles etc. That can sometimes create an artificial look. So having the option to choose a "dirtier" skin would be good.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#33 Atheran

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:18 AM

Mind uploading a texture? I'd like to check it out. I'll send it back in like 10-20mins for someone to try it in game enviroment.
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#34 Springheel

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:37 AM

Might be but the alternative is having most of those textures twice.


You don't have to...you can get decent results by just making a new material shader, copied from the original, and then add a blend filter stage that applies one of our existing dirt textures. I've done this already for barrels, among other things, and it can work pretty well. It's completely asset-free, since you're not actually adding any new files. You just have to experiment a bit to see how the dirt unfolds onto the given mesh...sometimes there can be unwanted tiling or hard edges that spoil it.

#35 XendroX

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:44 AM

About dirty skins - there is another one problem, some objects had texture only on half model (armchair for example), which apllied for right and left part of model - in this case any dirt will look symmetry and unnatural. I don't know how this can be fixxed, like only creating new full UV map for model.

#36 Springheel

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:48 AM

in this case any dirt will look symmetry and unnatural. I don't know how this can be fixxed, like only creating new full UV map for model.


Yes, that's true. In that case the easiest solution would probably be to make a new mesh that is half a unit above the visible mesh, give it a different uvmap and reserve it for dirt decals. You could also use it for rips or patches that way too.

#37 XendroX

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:52 AM

I'm thinking about models and want to post list with images of models, which I decided could look better. After wait for reply, what other says about this and only then renew what will be needed?
@ Springheel. Is that be wright?

#38 Springheel

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 09:12 AM

If I understand you correctly, sure.

#39 Melan

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 10:08 AM

This is one of the conflicts with the design philosophy in TDM - all textures are designed to be clean, and then to be dirtied later. This is the theoretical sound approach, because then each dirty object or floor can look unique.

However, in praxis it causes an overly clean look of the levels, because mappers never spend enough time to add dirt to everything, because it is very timeconsuming (DR does not have the right tools for it, try to dirty even one or two walls and you see it take ages instead of just "spraycanning dirt on the wall").

This was the situation in 2009, but it is not the situation now. Several new textures and objects have been added to the game which have a darker, dirtier look, and they can be used to build more dilapidated environments. How dirty or clean an environment looks now is mostly down to builder preference.

The addition of new resources, especially new decals representing cracked, rusting or dirtied surfaces is useful, but there is already enough stuff in TDM now to build a nasty slum or two. Or a mansion with darker colours.
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#40 XendroX

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 11:33 AM

List of containers

Posted Image

#41 Springheel

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 02:34 PM

You can't modify the crate to match that texture because it uses several different skins. And the tool-box probably shouldn't look exactly round, since it's just a rough cut piece of wood. The other ideas are fine with me.

This was the situation in 2009, but it is not the situation now.


And it's never been the situation with models, since decals aren't practical for most of them.

#42 Springheel

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 04:52 PM

I've looked at the new armchair model, and it has floating verts all over the uv-map...any idea why?

#43 XendroX

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:33 AM

Yes. In armchair I used Band Saw Pro, in other objects I use subdivide. I ask on lightwave forum how to heal'em quick, should answer.

What problem can cause this floating points? In game I walk around armchair with lantern and didn't see any trouble with texture

#44 Springheel

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 07:35 AM

I'm not sure...I know they cause big problems with .md5meshes, but they might not be a problem for .lwos

#45 XendroX

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 09:32 AM

Updated Armchair without floating points at UV map

http://www.ex.ua/115014340331


Screen of upgraded bucket
Posted Image

Files
http://www.ex.ua/921282302204

Posted Image

FIle
http://www.ex.ua/917475197156

Smooth rope for wine crate

Posted Image

Edited by XendroX, 12 October 2014 - 03:28 AM.

  • Tels, Bikerdude, SiyahParsomen and 1 other like this

#46 XendroX

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 03:06 AM

If existing models was in *.ase format, should I convert my *.lwo version to *.ase back?

#47 XendroX

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 05:04 AM

Decorations List
@SpringheelPosted Image

#48 Bikerdude

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 05:38 AM

The bucket is better, but maybe a little too thick? and the metal band at the top should maybe pertrude partway down into the inside of the bucket? and lastly you would see the rust ring on the inside at the bottom in RL, as the bottom would be sealed agaisnt the wooden sides.

#49 Springheel

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 07:41 AM

5,6&7 in that list have already been adjusted.

#50 XendroX

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 08:24 AM

About bucket. There are two ways with extended texture. 1st like i've done. 2nd to leave inside part like it was, because in other cases image stretches too much that look horrible :(( . What about ase format, should i convert lwo back to ase or not?

Edited by XendroX, 12 October 2014 - 08:25 AM.




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