edge grabbing indicator (for mantle)

[Gussak]

[EDIT: please, consider first this post, it speaks about a technical possible workaround that may require no visual indication (like showing arms) at all. Every idea evolves, and so did this one.]

 

Problem:

From time to time I have a hard time to properly aim one or another edge to mantle without jumping.

When that happens I usually aim every possible edge limits until the action happens, but sometimes I am forced to move a bit for it to work, and other times I need to try other sides of the furniture or rock boulder etc.

It is only really a problem when you need timing or under combat, but is only annoying out of combat.

 

Suggestions

Indicator:

I thought some indicator could be shown at the nearest climbable edge spot relative to the spot we are aiming. If it is out of reach the indicator would make that clear.

The indicator could be a simple spot that glows red if out of reach (or show an X).

For more immersion the indicator could be 3d hand meshes, only one or both hands shown at the nearest climbable edge spot. Or even more, we could see full arm(s) and hand(s) reaching to the climbable spot when you seem to be wanting to climb it (by looking at it for like 0.5s).

 

Option to Toggle:

It could be a hard option to enable/disable this feature.

Or player would be required to press mantle key to something be shown, or even another new key.

If continuously calculating the spot, it could happen once each 0.5s or even 1s.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Gussak

[SteveL]

My first thought was that an indicator goes against one of TDM's core design features: immersive realism. We don't use GUI overlays to make stuff easy in an unrealistic way: we don't have objective arrows to lead the player by the nose through the map, or sparkling loot to mark out certain paintings from a distance, but on the other hand mantling isn't something that'd be hard to judge in real life. You'd usually be able to tell where to grab a ledge to have the best chance of pulling yourself up, so this suggestion is closer to frob-highlighting than loot-sparkles. On the other hand, we'd only do it if the player is within reach of the mantle spot. And if we could work out automatically where exactly a nearby mantle attempt will work, we'd probably have "fixed" the mantle button so it uses that spot automatically. grayman will likely know whether it's possible and whether it's been rejected for other reasons.

 

I suspect the reason we haven't done it is technical difficulty and/or performance. It might be hard to predict whether a mantle attempt from a certain spot will work without trying it out behind the scenes. That's how the game tells whether you can drop a body in a certain spot for example: when you attempt to drop a body, the game "drops" it and lets the physics engine determine whether it has room to settle, and if the answer is no, it hides the body and puts it back on your shoulder again, all before anything is drawn on screen. It'd be impossible to do something like that for the player for every possible nearby mantle point, because the game can't know when you are about to *try* to mantle. The best that could probably be done without making mappers mark the mantle points in the map (not possible, we already have 80-odd maps) would be to try a failed mantle again from a couple of different angles before reporting the failure to the user.

[Gussak]

My first thought was that an indicator goes against one of TDM's core design features: immersive realism. We don't use GUI overlays to make stuff easy in an unrealistic way: we don't have objective arrows to lead the player by the nose through the map, or sparkling loot to mark out certain paintings from a distance, but on the other hand mantling isn't something that'd be hard to judge in real life. You'd usually be able to tell where to grab a ledge to have the best chance of pulling yourself up, so this suggestion is closer to frob-highlighting than loot-sparkles. On the other hand, we'd only do it if the player is within reach of the mantle spot. And if we could work out automatically where exactly a nearby mantle attempt will work, we'd probably have "fixed" the mantle button so it uses that spot automatically. grayman will likely know whether it's possible and whether it's been rejected for other reasons.

 

I suspect the reason we haven't done it is technical difficulty and/or performance. It might be hard to predict whether a mantle attempt from a certain spot will work without trying it out behind the scenes. That's how the game tells whether you can drop a body in a certain spot for example: when you attempt to drop a body, the game "drops" it and lets the physics engine determine whether it has room to settle, and if the answer is no, it hides the body and puts it back on your shoulder again, all before anything is drawn on screen. It'd be impossible to do something like that for the player for every possible nearby mantle point, because the game can't know when you are about to *try* to mantle. The best that could probably be done without making mappers mark the mantle points in the map (not possible, we already have 80-odd maps) would be to try a failed mantle again from a couple of different angles before reporting the failure to the user.

 

So it means, if the same space the player body occupy is available above (and a bit forward) the edge spot, then the edge becomes climbable right?

What about, on failure, retry to position that space checker to the left or to the right (could be randomly and must be within certain limits) of the desired spot? so, the player when edge climbing would be actually positioned on that side spot lowering the failure events.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Gussak

[Springheel]

My first thought was that an indicator goes against one of TDM's core design features: immersive realism.

 

+1

[Gussak]

+1

 

The immersive alternative I proposed could even be better in terms of animation:

Initially show just one 3d arm+hand just at the moment the player command to climb over the edge, that hand will hit the spot the player asked; Almost together but after, the other hand+arm will show up and finally perform the climbing, all takes less than 0.5s.

I think it will have to be considered as an equipped weapon that switch back to real weapon after climbing.

This exclusively, is purely aesthetics.

 

Anyway, I think the available spot double check may do the trick over the problem tho.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Gussak

[wesp5]

If this is ever considered I would suggest instead of raised arms or red spots which would look out of place in the TDM UI, the mantleable edges should become blue like other frobable stuff. One could then even use frob to mantle to make it easier for newbies, maybe with the option to turn the indicators off for hardcore veterans.

Edited November 10, 2014 by wesp5

[esme]

My first thought was that an indicator goes against one of TDM's core design features

My only thought, for me it's fine as it is, if this is implemented can it be made optional so those of us who don't want it don't have to have it

[Gussak]

If this is ever considered I would suggest instead of raised arms or red spots which would look out of place in the TDM UI, the mantleable edges should become blue like other frobable stuff. One could then even use frob to mantle to make it easier for newbies, maybe with the option to turn the indicators off for hardcore veterans.

 

hey, see below..

 

My only thought, for me it's fine as it is, if this is implemented can it be made optional so those of us who don't want it don't have to have it

 

hey, please consider this post (a possible technical workaround), may be the visual indication (even with showing arms) may not be required (even if it is cool). The main idea is to find a way to deal with the problem, to improve the playability, that's the main concern.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Gussak

[esme]

Personally I'm not seeing it as a problem but I'm a long time thief player, I acknowledge that newbies to TDM can have a hard time figuring things out hence my request that any implementation be made optional

[Gussak]

Personally I'm not seeing it as a problem but I'm a long time thief player, I acknowledge that newbies to TDM can have a hard time figuring things out hence my request that any implementation be made optional

 

Obs.: Just to make it sure, I am thinking now strictly about a possible fix (like the double check for available climbable spot), be it my suggestion or another more clueful one.

 

Sorry but what you are saying is that you got used to a playability problem.

You are a veteran on TDM because you know a lot about it (yes, including all its problems), but not because you get used to the problems.

Problems will always be problems, just consider that newcomers will surely be affected, and when you (that got used to it) are under pressure (3 skeletons and one mumie cornering you) and for any reason don't look well your surroundings, that problem may get you again, because problems are always problems (don't generalize too much tho, better call this specific matter as a limitation, something that should not happen and may be complex to fix).

 

Tho, I do agree that anything new, should (if possible) be implemented as optional.

 

I think what they may consider here is how important is this problem and what priority it should have to be fixed considering other problems. But I disagree this is not a problem.

 

Now I got interested because I see almost no other problems that call attention, and I have played several missions already (I almost feel veteran ), is there a link to them? I miss some features like roll forward and "stamina bar" (hard breathing sounds and complaints will do better hehe) to make use of all that eatable food (it would be fun to hear they say "hey who ate my apple?" and begin a distracting fight making it easier pass thru them). But I cant see other problems that are troubling enough to call my attention frequently as the game plays really smooth most of the time (it seems to only crash if I try to download more than 2 missions a time, what is actually just an annoyance).

Edited November 10, 2014 by Gussak