Orichalcum found...

[nbohr1more]

It was long suspected, due to the linguistic heritage of the name, that the mystery metal in Plato's Atlantis was

none other than a copper alloy. And now we have found one of the earliest (unusual) brass variants on a trade ship off

the coast of Sicily:

 

http://news.discovery.com/history/archaeology/atlantis-legendary-metal-found-in-shipwreck-150106.htm

 

This has me excited for two reasons:

 

1) King Alcinous of Scheria lived in Drepane (Trampani, Sicily) and there are many parallels between Scheria

and Atlantis, many historians have equated the two.

 

2) The "City of Brass" fables from the middle-east also echo many aspects of Atlantis

 

Still accidental copper\zinc alloys from the bronze age cast a wide net of possible locations where this civilization

may have had an abundance of the material. And obviously, ancient writers would not have the ability to strongly

distinguish brass\bronze other than via marco scale traits like malleability and shine (etc). So Plato's Orichalcum

may only vaguely resemble what the Egyptians were describing in the tale to Solon.

 

The big picture is that we now have reasonable evidence that the meaning of a word that was once commonly spoke

and faded into mystery has been deduced. Both by linguistics evidence ( Assyrian "Oreikhalkon" (mountain copper), Latin "Aurichalcum" (golden copper))

and now actual artifacts. As one commenter has pointed out, "just because you find a shipwreck with gold doesn't mean you'll find El Dorado"

this isn't of itself a smoking gun for the existence of a bronze age Atlantis type civilization but it is a tantalizing hint.

[Paralytik]

Interesting.

[Springheel]

I thought historians were pretty set on Thera being the likely source of the Atlantis stories?

[nbohr1more]

I thought historians were pretty set on Thera being the source of the Atlantis stories?

 

There's quite a body of evidence suggesting so, including:

 

1) One documented trading civilization Keftiu being lost and the closest candidate for said civilization being Minoan

2) The only archaeological remains of a Mediterranean super civilization being Minoan

3) The Theran erruption happening in 900 years before the tale was relayed to Solon (a factor of 10 less than 9000 )

4) The Hyksos were tied to the Minoans and held dominion over Egypt just as the Atlanteans did. The only Bronze Age civilization to do so.

5) There are Linear B Minoan tablets in ancient Greek ruins indicating that the Minoans at one time held Greece

 

The matter isn't clearly settled but the scholarly attitude is that if it existed the Minoans \ Thera are the best candidate.

[Springheel]

Archaeologists have also found that the Minoans had running water and sophisticated air-flow through their houses, significantly more advanced than their neighbors at the time.

[jaxa]

Atlantis is real^[1][2].

Edited January 12, 2015 by jaxa

[nbohr1more]

Oh, I see the confusion. "Scheria" is a mythical island in Homer's Odyssey.

 

Nobody knows where it is located either.

 

King Alcinous was just living in Drepane as a sort of luxury resort home.

 

If the Odyssey tale is to be believed, the people of Scheria had ships that required neither oarsmen nor sails,

they were self-propelled... If the Minoan's plumbing was impressive for it's time... how about motorboats eh?

 

Still, the Minoan hypothesis is unsatisfactory for one reason. The tale relates that the ruins of Atlantis lay only

a few feet below the water and left behind a muddy shoal that obstructs passage to a larger Ocean that is "no

longer navigable". The only place that seems to match that description is the remains of Lake Tritonis in Tunisia.

The Chotts el Jerid. And it's simply more fun to imagine it there, what with Thera being blow to smithereens and no

possibility to find a temple or palace there.

[lowenz]

Fake, the one and only Atlantis Orichalcum

 

 

Edited January 12, 2015 by lowenz

[lowenz]

 

There's quite a body of evidence suggesting so, including:

 

1) One documented trading civilization Keftiu being lost and the closest candidate for said civilization being Minoan

2) The only archaeological remains of a Mediterranean super civilization being Minoan

3) The Theran erruption happening in 900 years before the tale was relayed to Solon (a factor of 10 less than 9000 )

4) The Hyksos were tied to the Minoans and held dominion over Egypt just as the Atlanteans did. The only Bronze Age civilization to do so.

5) There are Linear B Minoan tablets in ancient Greek ruins indicating that the Minoans at one time held Greece

 

The matter isn't clearly settled but the scholarly attitude is that if it existed the Minoans \ Thera are the best candidate.

And maybe they buyed/imported orichalcum from Sicily.

[nbohr1more]

And maybe they buyed/imported orichalcum from Sicily.

 

Possibly, but the tale says they mined it themselves. So we would be looking for a place that has strange natural brass ore if we take

that part of the tale literally. The team that recovered the ingots thought that the ship was heading from Greece or Anatolia to Sicily...

[Springheel]

So we would be looking for a place that has strange natural brass ore if we take that part of the tale literally.

 

 

Since the tale was either hundreds or thousands of years removed from the events it describes, taking any of it literally should be for entertainment purposes only.

[nbohr1more]

Yeah, the fact that prior to the "bronze" age, the "copper age" spanned Europe and Northern Africa (at least) the possible locale for a site

that produces natural brass and the cumulative span of time is ... ahem... quite vast...

[nbohr1more]

Ah, another connection... The Elymians of western Sicily were the original builders\owners of Drepanon ( Drepane \ Trapani ).

Oh, if only the Elymian language was readable... So too with Linear A...

 

Probably long after I'm dead someone will find some crypt in Sais, or Minoan temple in Greece, or Elymian market with some

more clues to the era in question...

[nbohr1more]

So it seems that Santa Gilla lagoon at the southern tip of Sardinia was once a circular cove which at one point had a small island

in the center according to ancient maps.

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.sardolog.com/perso/atlantid/index.htm&prev=search

 

Sardinia is also the only attested location of Tarshish with the Phoenician "Nora Stele" referring to a local battle there and

found silver shipments in the eastern Mediterranean claimed to originate from Tarshish have the same metallurgical composition

as native silver on Sardinia. Many ancient academics have equated Tarshish with Atlantis. Sardinia is the home of the mysterious

Nuragic Civilization which may also be the root civilization of the Etruscans.

 

 

I'm liking this one more and more... except... no elephants

[nbohr1more]

Backtracking to Orichalcum being a brass variant, I went to look for natural zinc\copper ores and found that aurichalcite is not

present on Crete and the only island that has it in abundance is Sardinia. Also rosacite (another natural zinc\copper ore) is found

in one location "Rosas, Sardinia".

[lowenz]

Uhmmmm

 

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantide#Sardegna (italian site)

 

Una teoria analoga è stata avanzata anch'essa recentemente dal giornalista italiano Sergio Frau nel suo libro Le colonne d'Ercole (2002): le "colonne" di cui parla Platone andrebbero identificate con il canale di Sicilia (che è assai turbinoso, come descrive Platone le Colonne), dunque l'isola di Atlantide sarebbe in realtà la Sardegna^[65]: il popolo che edificò i nuraghi coinciderebbe allora con il misterioso popolo dei Shardana o Šerden (dai quali appunto si vorrebbe che la Sardegna abbia preso il nome), citati tra i "popoli del mare" che secondo le cronache degli antichi egizi tentarono di invadere il Regno d'Egitto. Alcuni Šhardana sarebbero quindi emigrati nella penisola italica, dove avrebbero dato origine alla civiltà etrusca. Un passo della descrizione platonica si vuole coincida con la forma della Sardegna: "Una pianura (il Campidano) che attraversa l'isola in senso longitudinale (ha coste ad est e ad ovest), situata tra due zone montuose a nord e a sud; le coste sono alte e rocciose, scoscese". Del resto, la Sardegna possiede ancora oggi zone pianeggianti situate alcuni metri sotto il livello del mare e ciò farebbe pensare che, essendo una terra geologicamente troppo antica per subire o aver subito catastrofi naturali di dimensioni catastrofiche, possa invece esser stata soggetta in passato a cataclismi legati al mare, il cui territorio probabilmente non avrebbe potuto respingere a causa appunto dell'altezza della sua superficie rispetto a quella marina. Oltretutto la mancanza di terremoti avrebbe permesso una grande espansione edilizia all'interno dell'isola, che all'epoca sarebbe potuta apparire in maniera notevolmente diversa. La "fine" di Atlantide viene anche fatta coincidere con la diffusione della malaria nell'isola.

Edited April 28, 2015 by lowenz

[lowenz]

Some pieces of the book (italian)

 

http://www.colonnedercole.it/libro/illibro.htm

Edited April 28, 2015 by lowenz

[nbohr1more]

Yeah, Sergio Frau has got some good data in his pocket but I'm still looking for a smoking gun. The existence of natural brass ore on Sardinia is pretty close but doesn't solve the cataclysm aspect. The other thing that is frustrating but tantalizing is that there are grave sites all over Sardinia with circular groundwork or stones around them. Many are quite large and have concentric ring. If you are trying to scan the land for evidence of the temple location you'll find rings all over the place. Apparently one of the nuragic tribes had this custom and it sorta makes you think that they are referencing Atlantis in tribute somehow.

[Noordung]

Oh, I see the confusion. "Scheria" is a mythical island in Homer's Odyssey.

 

Nobody knows where it is located either.

 

King Alcinous was just living in Drepane as a sort of luxury resort home.

 

If the Odyssey tale is to be believed, the people of Scheria had ships that required neither oarsmen nor sails,

they were self-propelled... If the Minoan's plumbing was impressive for it's time... how about motorboats eh?

 

Still, the Minoan hypothesis is unsatisfactory for one reason. The tale relates that the ruins of Atlantis lay only

a few feet below the water and left behind a muddy shoal that obstructs passage to a larger Ocean that is "no

longer navigable". The only place that seems to match that description is the remains of Lake Tritonis in Tunisia.

The Chotts el Jerid. And it's simply more fun to imagine it there, what with Thera being blow to smithereens and no

possibility to find a temple or palace there.

maybe paddle wheel ship powered by ox chinese had something like it...

http://www1.chinaculture.org/created/2005-06/21/content_69881.htm