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TTlg: they still need reminding...


Bikerdude

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I then recently getting told to stop mentioning people should try Darkradiant

So stop. I can't disassociate myself from this enough. Leave the poor people alone, you maniac!

 

In all seriousness though, it's not like TDM is the next logical step from Thief or anything. It's not inherently better. Like somebody on the last page said: they're very different games. The only thing that's really comparable between the two is the things that TDM took from it. Where it deviates, it deviates far enough that it's very much a different game entirely. There's no reason why they should move on to mapping with DR, none at all. To say that "the thief side of that forum is dying a slow death" as if it's a good thing is a dick move. If you were to disregard the place from here on out because you're salty that your thing has no place on somebody else's forums, you'd be the one at fault.

Edited by Airship Ballet
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I consider TDM a part of the Thief continuum, which is why I am using it (if we want to quibble, Thief 3 is much further from the formula), but I do think it is rude to go to a thread where people share their Dromed creations and say, "Guys, guys! Stop that thing you are enjoying and do this other thing instead." That's uncalled for. It is evident there are people who wish to stay with Dromed, and that should be respected.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Yep. If you have your religion, and the other has theirs, it is not very fruitful to try and sell your religion as superior.

 

Even if you have flawless scientific data to back your argument up, you will fail.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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  • Leave the poor people alone.
  • It's not like TDM is the next logical step from Thief or anything. It's not inherently better. There's no reason why they should move on to mapping with DR, none at all.
  • To say that "the thief side of that forum is dying a slow death" as if it's a good thing is a dick move. If you were to disregard the place from here on out because you're salty that your thing has no place on somebody else's forums, you'd be the one at fault.
  • Did you fully read my post? because I'm fairly sure I said I'm doing just that.
  • I have never made any comparisons between the two games being worse/better, again in my post I said people 'should try DR' and only then because people have always complained about how hard it is to map in Dromed, nothing more. Jesus if it was easy, I would have had a go in Dromed by now.
  • Its was a statement of fact, so your assertion is irrelevant. And with regard to disregarding the place, your making inaccurate assumptions based on limited information.

But I do think it is rude to go to a thread where people share their Dromed creations and say, "Guys, guys! Stop that thing you are enjoying and do this other thing instead." That's uncalled for.

see the second point.

Even if you have flawless scientific data to back your argument up, you will fail.

I had came to the same realisation myself over recent weeks, which is why I have stopped trying.

 

And before there any more assumptions, I like T1/2 and even some T3 missions. I have simply tried to be suggestive with regard to working and playing with tdm, but the fact both the mission's and the editor have garnered such lacklustre responses just validates this thread.

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  • Did you fully read my post? because I'm fairly sure I said I'm doing just that.

The silent treatment isn't apathy or closure, it's trying to make a point. Saying that you're going to "cut ties and move on" in this thread of all threads is an irony amongst ironies. You wouldn't be telling us all this if you weren't frustrated. This entire thread, from title to quoted post, exists because you think TDM deserves more recognition from TTLG. That's not an assumption, not at all: you don't have to literally say something verbatim for it to be true, and paraphrasing =/= flawed logic. What you want is fine, really: I, too, want TDM to be the best like no one ever was, but you're going about it in a really unproductive way. Make some banner ads for Adsense, don't just make a nuisance of yourself and then post the TDM logo right alongside it like it's the figurehead of preachy self-promotion.

 

Also, just because I'm petty and can't let this slide:

its time for me atleast, to cut ties and move on.

with regard to disregarding the place, your making inaccurate assumptions based on limited information

Edited by Airship Ballet
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I have never made any comparisons between the two games being worse/better, again in my post I said people 'should try DR' and only then because people have always complained about how hard it is to map in Dromed, nothing more. Jesus if it was easy, I would have had a go in Dromed by now.

You may not have meant it, but it has certainly been taken that way, in that context.

 

The difficulty of Dromed is something people constantly grumble about, but you'd be surprised how much it is overstated. It is so easy to map in Dromed hundreds of people have not just done it, but delivered fully realised fan missions, and all that without prior experience. You should try it for yourself, just don't end up leaving TDM, please. ;)

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Dromed's cut-away approach to building is more intuitive than positive-architecture. E.g., sealing and portaling come for free. But of course it's also an engraved invitation to boxy architecture. And if we're moving to func_stat architecture where our BSP brushes are buried under complex and interesting architectural features, the difference in generations that dates dromed architecture is going to increasingly stand out, if the ghastly blocky AI and objects haven't already. Soft lighting is another thing that's going to nix an old advantage the dark engine had, and real time soft lighting trumps dark's static blocky shadows quite a bit. The sheer versatility of TDM's scripting is another thing that makes it hard to look back to dromed & its weird ways of managing events, but anyway scripting isn't everyone's cup of tea so I can understand people not seeing that as an advantage.

 

To me it's hard not to see the parallels between the argument to stick with T2 and the arguments back in 2001 to stick with T1 and not move to T2's dromed. But I don't look down on anyone that wants to keep to T2 anyway. Actually I tend to think of them like the people that make C64 and Atari games, as deliberately into a retro scene for its own sake... not to make the best games, but to make a certain kind of retro-game on its own terms. I don't know if that's how they see it themselves, especially post-new dark, but that's what it looks like if one looks at it objectively I think. And that's cool. I want to make a C64 game too.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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  • you think TDM deserves more recognition from TTLG.
  • Also, just because I'm petty and can't let this slide:
  • Damn right, but as has been disappointingly demonstrated this is never going to happen. :(
  • no comment.
You should try it for yourself, just don't end up leaving TDM, please. ;)

Another reason why I have never tried DromED for me atleast, is the horrible user-unfriendly gui - when compared the DR. Heh, not very likely, to busy with my own WIPs and helping various people with theirs ^_^

To me it's hard not to see the parallels between the argument to stick with T2, but I don't look down on anyone that wants to keep to T2 anyway.

Exactly and I am the same, my flaw in this instance is from a desire to see more T1/2 mappers comer over to TDM. But the poor migration numbers and general apathy are what caused me atleast, so much ire.

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my flaw in this instance is from a desire to see more T1/2 mappers comer over to TDM. But the poor migration numbers and general apathy are what caused me atleast, so much ire.

 

 

Just curious, but in your opinion, what do you think the reason(s) is/are for Dromeders not migrating to DR, or even just FM players not showing more enthusiasm for TDM FMs? I get the feeling you have a theory.

Edited by brethren
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I don't think anyone on ttlg or here has attempted to answer that, Melan/Skacky would be best placed to answer that - but at a guess maybe its the lack of Garrett and thief resources that might be the stumbling block?.

 

In my suggestions for people to try DR, I have either gotten pushback or no response at all.

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I think that the sample data from the TTLG author community is too low to draw any good conclusions but if we are to trust both authors and players

the big hurdles to adoption are:

 

1) Doom 3

 

Ha ha! We're standalone now baby!

 

2) Restricted view distances.

 

This one you could answer with "See Keeper of Infinity, more detail means more performance hit." That

said, we are open source so we may have a better answer for this in an upcoming release...

 

3) Map load times.

 

We are open source, so there may be a solution for this in the future too...

 

4) Ugly hard shadows...

 

Same as above...

 

However... if you design your map like Patently Dangerous where shadow casters

are close to receivers and\or lights are close to shadow casters then hard shadows look completely natural.

 

5) No Garrett

 

No answer for this other than "There are plenty of Thief 1/2 FM's that do not feature Garrett"

 

 

That's what I've gathered from reading replies over the years. So until we have good answers to 2, 3, and

4 we should probably refrain from engaging the veterans there.

 

TLDR; We'll see what they say when v2.04 is out....

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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6. Familiarity. I still use Windows 7, and I'll use it until I have to update. Is it because I think it's better than 8 or 10 or whatever is the newest version? No. But it's what I'm comfortable with, and the effort to learn something new is often not worth it if what you're currently doing is still rewarding.

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I think the Garrett hurdle isn't as big as some make out (not implying you are) but for me Garrett feels like he is only apart of the main Thief 1/2/3 missions that shipped with the game because it features the excellent writing of the looking glass studios team and the fantastic voice acting of Stephen Russell which made that all believeable however we will never have that again (but we may get close one day who knows). I very rarely (and i've played a few hundred Thief gold/Thief 2 fms) come close to feeling like a continuation from the main game and that "hey this is Garrett just picking up where things left off".

 

Sure authors use the name Garrett in the missions and they can have voice actors sounding close to him but it doesn't have the authentic feel of the originals any more than say TDM does. Whenever I play a fan mission I feel like I am the Thief and enter into this world which absorbs me and allows me to play out the fantasy of playing as an excellent thief in medieval times in a universe close enough to ours to relate to but with differences enough to make it more interesting and still leave that sense of curiosity and wonder.

 

Now as for the universe there are definitely some things I miss in TDM that are present in Thief however as a mapper i've never felt like i'm missing out.. moreso just it gives me more incentive to create my own canon and make it fit into my world better, some people may view this as a hurdle but I view it as a challenge and a fun one at that. If I ever get stuck we have some excellent lore written out for our game anyway (which seems to be overlooked.. i'm guessing because of a lack of campaign).

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there are definitely some things I miss in TDM that are present in Thief however as a mapper i've never felt like i'm missing out.. moreso just it gives me more incentive to create my own canon and make it fit into my world better, some people may view this as a hurdle but I view it as a challenge and a fun one at that

This. It's nice to see TDM slowly becoming identifiable as its own thing, becoming standalone in more than one sense. I don't want Thief on a newer engine: I want original content that entertains in the same ways its inspiration does.

 

The above points strike me as pretty silly as far as playing TDM goes: if people actually did come to TDM and go "nah, it's not similar enough to what I'm playing now: I'm comfortable with Thief and TDM is too different," then I have no idea how they've kept themselves sane over the years, reading the same book over and over with the T.V. stuck looping one episode of one show. Mapping for TDM is a different matter, and although pretty much anything can be learned given enough time, I can understand people who have carved a niche not wanting to dabble. All the same, all the negative feedback I've seen second-hand is just from people who don't want TDM in their Thief-niche. Fair enough, I guess. Some people are weird like that, and they'll always have a go at you if you nag them, but most people are capable of owning accounts on more than one forum at a time, and those people have nothing but nice things to say over here.

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  • 2 weeks later...

What's wrong with inviting people to try something new? And who could know it better than biker as he is the main creator of FM content and has helped out so much people here releasing their own missions?

 

And if you want to stick with your familiar system (like DromEd or Windows 7) it's fine, but you really shouldn't do it without trying something newer that might brings you further.

 

(No I'm not hating T1 & T2 FMS, I also play and love them. It's a nice and productive community over there at TTLG too!)

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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It's fine in the right place, but not so great in TTLG's Editor's Guild threads where mappers are already working on Dromed and are asking questions. IMO the best diplomacy are release threads and screenshots in the 'What are you making now' thread, and let the screenshots speak for themselves. People from here might contribute more to the TDM FM threads on TTLG too if we want to have a presence. Better to make a splash in our own threads than dromed ones IMO.

 

Edit. That said, I wonder if the mappers on TTLG appreciate that Biker is the biggest advocate of T2 maps on our forums too for TDM mappers to learn from. Look out the Inspiration thread.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Really surprised that not nearly every Thief freak at least tried TDM once. I was immediately stoked when i saw those early preview videos with the candle stick showing the object handling. Though i must say i'm not very surprised that there are some true hardliners on TTLG who would never touch TDM, even if it was superior in any aspect (which i think is almost the case though, at least on the technical side). The only thing i miss sometimes is the feeling, and consistency of a real storyline/campaign. That was amazing on the original Thief's. But of course hardly managable in TDM.

Edited by chakkman
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Really surprised that not nearly every Thief freak at least tried TDM once. I was immediately stoked when i saw those early preview videos with the candle stick showing the object handling. Though i must say i'm not very surprised that there are some true hardliners on TTLG who would never touch TDM, even if it was superior in any aspect (which i think is almost the case though, at least on the technical side). The only thing i miss sometimes is the feeling, and consistency of a real storyline/campaign. That was amazing on the original Thief's. But of course hardly managable in TDM.

In my opinion it's more of an issue of the universe not really present and a lack of consistency at least from my experience. It's more managable than you think.

 

For example, if a group of members wanted to get together and make their own cannon (seperate or a derivative of the main) they could brainstorm ideas such as:

-Mapping out the world, even adding places that will be in a future missions. Also evisiting locations in other FM's.

-important characters (such as ones who play such a huge role that they paint the whole cannon, for example if the current king or captain of the watch does the "All crimes are punishable by death" thing, or there is any other strict laws. Religious figures that are seen as the mouthpiece of the builder and are mentioned everywhere. etc)

-certain layouts that all their missions should follow.

 

They could control whatever was in this cannon to keep the continuity going, for example if someone made something though it didn't follow the lore well enough they could say it's a derivative of the cannon. There could be a download option that downloads all the maps of a certain cannon, and in the new mission it can single out only missions int he cannon you're currently on if you want to play them.

Edited by ShadeDrifter
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We have a very rough canon. It may not be as fleshed out as in the Thief games, but who cares. Mappers get more freedom on the other side. When mapping for Thief, you are not forced to stick to the canon, too. And I don't think it gets pointed out everytime either.

 

I want to play stealth missions with good mechanics and a story that give me some sense behind what I'm doing. Whether it sticks to some canon or not is completely uninteresting to me, as long as the story is consistent in itself. And as a mapper, I wouldn't want to be restricted story-wise either, I just want to do what I feel comfortable with.

 

I really think the main reason is as Spring mentioned that the people got used to DromEd. They have spend a long time learning how to use it properly and have improved their skills over the years, so it is understandable that most of them don't want to start from zero again.

 

We have plenty of new mappers joining TDM, especially since we've gone standalone. We may not release as much FM's as the Thief community does, but who cares. Everything you get here you get for free, so be pleased with what is there.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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In my opinion it's more of an issue of the universe not really present and a lack of consistency at least from my experience. It's more managable than you think.

 

For example, if a group of members wanted to get together and make their own cannon (seperate or a derivative of the main) they could brainstorm ideas such as:

-Mapping out the world, even adding places that will be in a future missions. Also evisiting locations in other FM's.

-important characters (such as ones who play such a huge role that they paint the whole cannon, for example if the current king or captain of the watch does the "All crimes are punishable by death" thing, or there is any other strict laws. Religious figures that are seen as the mouthpiece of the builder and are mentioned everywhere. etc)

-certain layouts that all their missions should follow.

 

They could control whatever was in this cannon to keep the continuity going, for example if someone made something though it didn't follow the lore well enough they could say it's a derivative of the cannon. There could be a download option that downloads all the maps of a certain cannon, and in the new mission it can single out only missions int he cannon you're currently on if you want to play them.

 

Still, even though mappers stick to the rough TDM universe (i see that in most mission briefings), depending on the mapper, the missions feel very different. Some almost feel like Thief missions, some feel like a completely different game. It actually already starts with the way briefings are written. Or the textures, the people in the mission, their names, the way they talk, the way the house interiors look, the overall atmosphere. The ambient music not to forget. It's very different in the various TDM missions. Which of course is fair enough, as, as Obsttorte mentioned, mappers should be free to do their own thing. But it doesn't give me the consistent campaign feeling i get in the Thief games, and i can't even see how the upcoming campaign is going to fix that, because it's also made my different mappers who have different tastes and view points.

Edited by chakkman
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As far as campaigns go, I believe that the current one being worked on is indeed made out of maps that were already in progress, then made to conform to a single story or progression. That is as good a way of making a campaign as any, I guess.

 

Something I have never seen though was someone setting out to form a team for the specific purpose of creating a campaign. It would be interesting to see someone skilled in mapping writting a strong plot and attracting people so they can work on a unified project from the ground up, going for that feel of unity some of you guys were talking about.

 

I doubt that this would be easy. In my case, as I guess in many others, mapping was about sharing my own vision of a "stealthy adventure". It was about making my own ideas coming true. People wanna make their own maps, instead of someone else's. Thats probably why there hasnt been many teams, following a manifesto around here. Most stories (or characters) that stretch over several maps were conceived and constructed by a single person (NHAT, Grayman's and Sotha's, etc).

Edited by RPGista
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i can't even see how the upcoming campaign is going to fix that,

 

 

The Crucible of Omens campaign was never about establishing the TDM setting or sticking to canon, so you shouldn't hold it to that standard. It was more about telling an extended story, in the T2X vein.

 

And I think describing it as "upcoming" is probably not very accurate.

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