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How would you change St. Lucia


Springheel

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This came up in another thread. I'm curious, for the people who found St. Lucia too frustrating...what difficulty level did you play it on, and what specifically would you change?

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I think it is mostly about That One Builder Guard.

 

I personally would not change a thing, but maybe the guard should stand in a place you can see from the shadows, so that the player gets a visual warning of their presence.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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maybe the guard should stand in a place you can see from the shadows, so that the player gets a visual warning of their presence.

 

 

That actually happens already (now) if you play it on Easy. But I'm asking because Steve noted that he found the nave difficult as well.

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...

I have to agree, I found St Lucia very hard for an intro too. I was a fan of mainstream stealth games but not an experienced taffer when I discovered TDM 15 months ago, and although I managed to get through St Lucia, it was only by quicksave "cheating" near the end, i.e. I didn't feel rewarded for my skill because I knew it was down to blind luck and a quicksave button. I found the alternative route in so the tough bit that sticks in my mind was the church nave. I remember being seen dozens of times trying to get past the windows. That said, it got me hooked!

 

For me, I'd tweak the patrol of one of those guards in the church somehow so there's only one looking down the nave most of the time, and so it's easier to avoid being spotted in the more open rooms near the main entrance. As best as I can remember after 100s more hours playing, it was the combo of those two guards that never seemed to leave me an opportunity to get past the windows unseen. Changing the windows to leave a clear path through the shadows would make it too easy, but giving me only one guard's sightline to avoid most of the time would have helped.

 

I can't remember my difficulty setting on my first playthrough but given that there were only 3 to choose from I probably chose hardest. When I started playing TDM I considered myself a patient and able player of (other!) stealth games and probably chose hardest because I always want to consider my performance "above average" :)

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I can't remember my difficulty setting on my first playthrough but given that there were only 3 to choose from I probably chose hardest.

 

I was going to say, on "Easy" there IS only one guard in that area. If you choose either of the other two, then there are 2 guards (IIRC).

 

I'm curious about this--how many other players who found it frustrating chose a difficulty level that was higher than "Easy"?

 

edit: maybe we need the following difficulty levels instead:

 

"New to Stealth Games"

"New to TDM"

"TDM veteran"

 

:)

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My trouble in the church before I got used to the game mechanics was clearly my own fault then, but I'd be curious to know whether anyone ever chooses "easy" as an option in a stealth game. The other games I played before TDM tended to position those choices as playstyles rather than difficulty. "Combat" in Splinter Cell, for example, or "Focused on rapid story progression" in RPGs rather than "easy". TDM doesn't have a "combat" mode of playing so perhaps we should position the levels as "Hard", "Veteran", and "You need balls like Death Stars". That might have helped me click the easiest option :)

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I think it is mostly about That One Builder Guard.

+1

 

The first time I've played that mission I've ran into that one. The thing is that the alternative route isn't that easy to find as one can clearly miss the hint to the hint :)

 

The guard, however, is a bit mean as he is just standing there. If he would move a bit from time to time (maybe towards the front entrance and back) this would make things easier.

 

The rest of the mission is fairly simple.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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I agree with Sotha and Obs; when I played St. Lucia I got to that guard and thought the only way through was to kill him. That (along with the nihilistic story) left a bad taste in my mouth when I'd finished the fm.

But you should walk having internal dignity. Be a wonderful person who can dance pleasantly to the rhythm of the universe.

-Sun Myung Moon

 

My work blog: gfleisher.blogspot.com

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Well, just let the player's (narrator's) voice say "Well, looks like I should find another way in..." at the tunnel with that one guard and everything will be fine. :)

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"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Well, just let the player's (narrator's) voice say "Well, looks like I should find another way in..." at the tunnel with that one guard and everything will be fine. :)

Alternatively make the guard visible from the shadows and give the player a gas arrow. Simple, but exciting solution for a newbie. Tool use is always good!

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Alternatively make the guard visible from the shadows and give the player a gas arrow. Simple, but exciting solution for a newbie. Tool use is always good!

 

Nice idea too but wouldn't have worked for me though, since I tend to save my tools for later instead of using them for the first encounter :P

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Here is another way to bypass that guard (spoilered):

 

 

Most of the city segment is lit by torches and lanterns, but the approach to the guard has electrical lights. You could add a small maintenance station where you could temporarily turn them off (or turn their light into a flickering for extra tension), giving you a way in. Here is how I'd set it up as a gameplay challenge:

  • Readable note about how the grid is unstable and poorly maintained in this derelict area, and how water leaking through the ceiling shorted out the lights.
  • Break into the maintenance station: object manipulation puzzle. (Pull heavy objects from before window?)
  • Short out the generator with a water arrow.
  • You can now sneak by the guard and get inside.
  • However, a Builder forger is also spawned to go fix the problem. If you don't knock him out, he will repair the apparatus, and stick around in the maintenance station.

 

 

This option requires some time to build, but would not be prohibitively complicated.

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Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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It is quite some time, that I have played the mission, but i also remember that guard (although I am not sure about the difficulty setting). I actually never noticed that there was a way around. I distracted the guard with a noise arrow. It took some tries to know where exactly to shoot the arrow, that the guard looks away long enough, but that way it was possible to sneak past him, without knocking him out or killing him.

 

Regarding the nave: as I said, I am not sure about my difficulty setting, but I think I also had two guards there. It was quite challenging, and I needed a couple of tries, but I do not remember it to be frustrating or impossible.

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I agree with all the comments about That One Guard. I think I just ran past him and lost him later somewhere where he couldn't follow. Not a stealthy approach either ;)! How about a note somewhere hinting at another entrance? Or if that already exists, making it more obvious.

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Even if you're looking for a sneaky way in, checking the map may give the impression you're expected to use the 'garbage chute' or 'upper door'.

 

Regarding the guard, it's not just that he's in shadow; he isn't clearly inside the church precincts, and he's the first hostile AI you'll encounter by following the street. Someone who met the non-hostile AIs previously might be expecting something like the warning you get if you try to enter Bafford's Manor through the front gate.

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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Now that I think more about the matter...

 

 

Shouldn't the player, a master thief, be able to pick the lock on some random smashed & abandoned house?

 

That way

I) observant explorer players could follow the hint to get the key and open the door.

II) action oriented players could gas That One Guard.

III) others could just lockpick the door to the hidden passage (but make it difficult)

 

More options, more support for different play-styles. I suppose this should apply to all missions generally. Key-hunts simply suck ass (IMHO, feel free to disagree.)

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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The voice prompt sounds like a very good idea, even if it's a bit odd to have the character speak only once during a mission (but we could perhaps record a couple more lines at the same time). Players might still make lots of tries to get past the guard, but at least they'll know for sure they have another option if they want to go investigating the neighbourhood so it'd address the "frustration" concerns.

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Knocking the key down from the windowsill is mega frustrating; it must have taken me dozens of attempts. It would be nice to somehow expand the collision model, put it on an unstable ledge that can itself be hit, or some other physics tweak to make it easier to hit the right spot.

+1

 

The problem is, even if you hit the container it does not neccesarely fall down.

 

A nonsolid button with clip_projectile that triggers a func_forcefield that pushes down the container may do the trick here.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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The voice prompt sounds like a very good idea, even if it's a bit odd to have the character speak only once during a mission (but we could perhaps record a couple more lines at the same time).

Yes, another voice prompt would be helpful when the player finds the locked trapdoor into the sewers to indicate that it isn't possible to pick or smash the lock.

 

An alternative to voiceovers would be to highlight it in the briefing (assuming it isn't already and I just wasn't paying attention). Someething like "The front entrance is likely to be heavily guarded [picture of That One guard], but I've heard locals talk of a long-abandoned network of sewers that run under the cathedral. If I can find out how to access them, I might be able to enter the cathedral without alerting anyone."

 

A nonsolid button with clip_projectile that triggers a func_forcefield that pushes down the container may do the trick here.

Yep. Help the player out with "hacks" if necessary, it won't particularly break immersion but should avoid a tedious and time-consuming series of attempt/fail/reload cycles.

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I haven't completed the entire mission yet, but here are my thoughts from the parts that I have played:

  1. Although the tavern you need to go into to discover the sewer key is right in front of you, it isn't obvious that it is actually enterable until you go right up to the door. Some creative lighting to draw the player's eye towards the door itself (rather than the street outside) might be a good idea.

 

Well that part is simple; there is a drunk in the tavern. Script it so that when the map starts, the player sees that drunk walk into the building.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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Or if it is a tavern and the player does not have to pick the lock (as I said, I did not find it, so I am not sure), just set the door to be slighlty open. Maybe even have some light shine through the crack. That way it is not as obvious as another person walking in, but it is still easier to spot.

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Well that part is simple; there is a drunk in the tavern. Script it so that when the map starts, the player sees that drunk walk into the building.

That would certainly be nice additional flavour, but is probably more work and if the player isn't paying attention he will miss the clue. Using subtle lighting to "nudge" the player towards noticing things is a well-established technique in games and has the advantage of being persistent.

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I hadn't played this one for ages so just had a go at it

I wouldn't call it easy as it is very difficult to spot the note about the key on the window ledge - once you have that it is relatively straightforward - so if the note was more obvious or there was another hint somewhere about it

Edited by Oldjim
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I like the idea of prompt. Not necesarily a voiced one. It can be even a text notification in the border of the screen.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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