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Combat Blocking Issues


MajorLunaC

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I know as a Thief-like game, The Dark Mod is not really supposed to be focused on fighting, but there should be reasonable fighting mechanics. I don't know how to beat any of the heavily armored enemies in the tutorial apart from shooting an arrow right in their face.

*Combat Issues:
- AI blocks perfectly every time, the moment you even start swinging the sword.
- AI side swing and over-head swing are difficult to distinguish.
- Your block must start the moment the AI even begins to swing. Any later and your block may unexpectedly fail even though it's the correct direction and the visuals display you fully blocking.

To fix the issues, I can only think of suggesting that the AI might need a random chance of blocking correctly, higher with class of fighter. The animation and sword movements need to be a bit more obvious so the side swing and over-head are easily distinguishable. The player's mechanics either need to be tweaked so blocking correctly is more likely or maybe an auto-block with a high chance of blocking correctly (last resort). What do you think?

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- AI blocks perfectly every time, the moment you even start swinging the sword.

- AI side swing and over-head swing are difficult to distinguish.

- Your block must start the moment the AI even begins to swing. Any later and your block may unexpectedly fail even though it's the correct direction and the visuals display you fully blocking.

 

 

Although you're right about #2 (it's an animation issue we don't have the manpower to solve atm), your observations about 1 and 3 are not actually accurate. AI already have a random chance to block (depending on their skill level and the difficulty level). And the block can be started any time between when the AI starts swinging and when it hits you (which granted is not very long).

 

There is a video around here of someone taking on a group of 20 AI in combat and winning, but I can't find it atm.

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Don't tell me I have to practice until I get perfect timing. These observations are from lots and lots and lots of dying at the hands of heavily armored foes. I can't lay a single clean hit on heavily armored foes (Training duel 2 + 3). How do you hit them if they're always blocking by the time you swing your arm forward?

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Maybe you've set your combat difficulty too high. There is a setting in the menue under gameplay iirc. However, it'S a stealth game, so combat should be difficult. Why should a thief be able to beat an armored and trained guard in a melee fight?

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Yes. The player should die if he decides to fight with his puny shortsword an armored foe wielding a longsword. The player should also die if they end up fighting multiple enemies at once.

 

The player should only win with tool usage (arrow through the face grill, gas arrow, mine, fire arrow, flashbomb), possibly combined with the element of surprise. Usually it is just better to avoid combat and sneak around enemies.

 

Nowadays games are designed so that the player character is hercules and can beat all opponents in any method. In TDM the player is intentionally frail, which is the beauty of it.

 

Use your tools and your wits to beat tough enemies instead of brute force.

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Clipper

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There is in fact an option for auto-block, where you only need to press the block key and the player character will automatically block the blow in whichever direction its coming. You should try that. Fighting heavily armed enemies is cool because you need to have that extra accuracy in order to find the gaps in the armor, its one of the best design choices in TDM, armor plates actually protect npcs instead of increasing their "resistance" to damage as in most games. So you have to find the open areas. The arms are the easiest way to go, most of the times, or the face.

 

As for Obs and Sotha's theories of what the player should or shouldnt do, thats not, as a matter of fact, true. Granted it has been stated that the TDM character, by default, follows Thief's formula of a classic D&D rogue class, supposedly frail in combat and receiving bonuses for stealth attacks. But melee in TDM, as in Thief, is complex and made to have a strategic feel to it, in the same vein as the rest of the game. Nothing stops the player from practising on the arena till they master sword fighting and is prepared to face any guard if the situation arises, instead of fearing confrontation. This is one of the most fun ways of playing IMO as it is also the most unpredictable. You can play the stealthy way where you mostly rely on equipment so noone will ever detect you, or you can go around and you use the blackjack to KO and get rid of npcs before they notice you, and you can also use the sword when confronted by alerted guards, defend yourself or take some nasty guy out. Cool thing about TDM is that it doesnt keep you from doing anything you like, as long as you can get away with it and finish the mission.

Edited by RPGista
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Well, not exactly, as a lot of mission authors actually limit how you can play their maps by imposing "no-kill" or "no-ko" restrictions, so combat will not be a factor in all missions here.

 

The best compromise between allowing no npc to be touched or having the possibility of all of them being put out of action (some people like to do that before they even start exploring the map) was done, to my knowledge, by Springheel in A Score to Settle, where the limitations are organic and tied very well with the plot. It gives you freedom to a good extent and also keeps trigger happy players from clearing out the map from the shadows and spoiling their own fun.

Edited by RPGista
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[...] You should try that. Fighting heavily armed enemies is cool because you need to have that extra accuracy in order to find the gaps in the armor, its one of the best design choices in TDM, armor plates actually protect npcs instead of increasing their "resistance" to damage as in most games. So you have to find the open areas. The arms are the easiest way to go, most of the times, or the face.

I agree, thats one of the very good things TDM has.

It also can get getting used too, if you don't know it, since most games are not that way (although the sound does do its best to give the message).

Hitting hard Plate with a short sword? Sorry no damage, thats the thing it was designed for.

 

 

Combat feels harder than in Thief 1/2 though, without autoblocking i would just die.

I'd really like to see the video of one taking on 20 guards, I bet I could learn something from it.

And the block can be started any time between when the AI starts swinging and when it hits you (which granted is not very long).

I am also not so sure about block timing, often my key is pressed before the hit feedback (hit sound), but the block doesn't work.

 

My biggest problem so far are the double attacks, as I haven't found any way that works against them, besides luck.

 

 

In my opinion, although hard, control over a combat outcome should lie with the player. this works on blocks and strikes, but if you are not fast enough to strike after a block, its trouble.

But I till now, I haven't found a way to either stop a fast second swing with my hit, or see a clue that it is coming to stop me from striking, or to stop my strike to block it in time.

If someone who knows how it works makes a combat tutorial map, I really would play that.

(Tutorial meaning more than letting you try, but also with explanations how you do things.)

Edited by DeusXIncognita
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I'd really like to see the video of one taking on 20 guards, I bet I could learn something from it.

 

 

I'm pretty sure it was Aluminum Haste, but I can't find the video.

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If you're sure it was Aluminum Haste, search YouTube, not the Forum. I only found a video tutorial on the combat, and a list of others I haven't checked yet:

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Aluminum+Haste+dark+mod

 

I also completely forgot to mention, I was wondering why it isn't considered a block when both you and the AI swing the sword at the same time to attack. The swords should normally bounce off when they hit each other, but I just end up getting damaged.

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If you're sure it was Aluminum Haste, search YouTube, not the Forum.

 

 

Thanks for the advice, but I do know how searches work. The video isn't listed on Youtube, which means either I'm wrong about it being AH (don't think so), or he has removed it or marked it as not public (or used another site).

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