Some issues with missions with very long guard paths

[chakkman]

Hey,

 

playing Sotha's first Ulysses missions atm. While i really love the mission so far, it showed me once again a problem i already discovered in other missions, grayman's "In the north" mission to mention especially. and that is the in parts excessively long paths A.I.'s walk in some missions. While i can understand that some may think it adds to realism and unpredictability, it makes it damn hard to hide bodies for example. For example, in Sotha's mission, i blackjacked the guy working in the steamworks, and hid his body in a nearby room i lockpicked, in a niche which was lit by a candle on the wall, which i extinguished. I spent about 5 minutes in that room, searching for loot, or items to pick up. In these 5 minutes, noone entered, or left the room. Then i went out of the room, and got to an outdoor area in front of the manor. I spent about another minute and a half hiding in the dark behind a crate, to see what's going on outside, and even blackjacke a guard patrolling outside in that time, then all of a sudden, the door i came out of opens, and some housemaid comes out. So i went inside again to see where the hell she came from now, and realized she had even lit the candle again, and probably saw the body of the blackjacked steamworker too.

 

Guys, isn't that a bit too much? I mean, as i wrote, i can understand the added realism and all that, but for playability, it has to be a bit predictable. Stealth games don't work without a bit of predictability. In reality, you won't stand a chance in most cases due to the way real people behave, how unpredictable they are, and coincidence. In a game, i have at least to rely a bit on things i can foresee, and i can't foresee a housemaid entering the place i hid a body after like 10 minutes, lighting the torch i extinguished to darken the niche i hid the body in. That's a tad too much really. It makes it almost impossible to know where you can hide a body so that noone stumbles over it. It has always been predictable in the original Thief games, it's predictable in games like Splinter Cell or Chromicles of Riddick too. So please, consider there's also people who blackjack everyone in sight, and need to hide the bodies somewhere. There's not only people who ghost missions.

 

As i said, that's not to say i don't enjoy the missions, and this one in particular, it's really great, and it's awesome how creative some people here are. Just felt like mentioning this, because TDM really gives me a damn hard sometimes. I mentioned it in another thread already: The original Thief games were considered as very hard games by most of the game press. TDM is a lot more harder even. At least my personal view is that it could be a little bit easier sometimes.

[Sotha]

Thanks for the message and I appreciate that you liked the mission.

 

For me, games are about decision making. You make a decision to KO someone. If you make that decision, then you have a body to dispose. Then you need to make a decision where to toss it and so forth.

 

I love unpredictability and I like to include it in my missions. I made the mission, but even I do not know where the AI goes at what point in time. This, in my view, improves the replayability of the mission. When you play the mission again, it will be different. You can make a new set of choices and the game flows differently. You have different opportunities at different times at different gameplay instances.

 

You KO'd someone. You hid the body poorly. KOing someone will mean that there is the risk that the body will be found. To avoid that risk you need to avoid KO'ing people. Making KOs makes stuff easier (no guard), but also more difficult (body to dispose).

 

Okay, the maid found the body you left. So what? The mission will not terminate because of the found body. The maid freaks out, probably runs to get a guard. Then the mission continues. Perhaps it will be more interesting after the guards are alerted? Also, remember putting a body somewhere visible might make a great distraction. Or if you don't like the message of a body to get around, put the body in a room and a mine (a gasmine if you are nice) in front of the door. If someone tries to go there, they are also removed from the game. Decisions, lots of decisions, lots of play-styles.

 

There are many ways to play a stealth game and all the ways are correct. But I always wonder, why people expect to be able to pull the mission through without making a single mistake, without causing any disturbances and without causing an alarm. Those things are part of the gameplay. It happens. It is okay. Nothing wrong in it. Stop quickloading and embrace the alert guards (with a flashbomb, then run away, hide, and continue the mission normally after the AI calms down).

 

I remember someone once wrote that a FPS shooter has a wide margin of error: health 100% and health 0%. You play and you lose when health is 0%. Wide margin. Then they said that stealth games have a binary margin of error: the AI is not alerted or the AI is alerted. A narrow margin of error.

 

This, of course, is rubbish. The stealth game has the same margin of error as the shooter: as long as you are alive, you have not lost. Getting the AI spooked just makes stuff more interesting and possibly harder. But not too hard if you remember to use the tools at your disposal. The biggest issue, I think, is that mappers often give too little equipment, and the players forget to use them.

[chakkman]

Another example, same mission: I get to the front hall, overhear a chat with the Lord and his wife (i think), the lady says she's gonna go to bed. While that chat, 2 guards patrol the hall, and a maid walks through, and there's literally a pile up in the hall with 5 AI's at the same time. Sorry, but IMO that's too much. It never was like that in the original Thief's, and as i said, it adds an element of total unpredictability which makes it easier to ghost than to blackjack. If that's intended, cool, but i believe for a good mission, it takes to being able to play it using different styles of playing. I know i will take a seat in a lonesome boat with my opinion, as most people here are hardcore Thief players who play these games for years and years, and who think blackjacking is for casual gamers, but it's just what i feel with many TDM missions nowadays. I really like yours and grayman's missions, but the patrol paths, and the lack of spots to hide bodies make the mission very hard to play for me. And annoying when i did quicksave, and the maid who takes a 15 minute AI path even finds the body i hid in a niche. I mean, what am i suppose to do? Go down to the cells where i started and hide the body there? That'd take like a minute to dispose of the body alone.

 

 

There are many ways to play a stealth game and all the ways are correct. But I always wonder, why people expect to be able to pull the mission through without making a single mistake, without causing any disturbances and without causing an alarm. Those things are part of the gameplay. It happens. It is okay. Nothing wrong in it. Stop quickloading and embrace the alert guards (with a flashbomb, then run away, hide, and continue the mission normally after the AI calms down).

Well i guess there's the problem. You expect a certain style of playing. Well that's not my style of playing, and i wouldn't know why i should, just because a mission maker didn't intend his mission to be played like that. The game should allow to be played in all sorts of styles from ghosting to even killing everything in sight. Otherwise you could just get rid of longswords, arrows, blackjacks, and all those weapons which kill or knockout AI's.

 

I guess the most important thing for me is to have control, and be able plan my actions. I can't do that with AI all over the place. AI is even intentionally made stupid in every game, because the game would be unplayable with AI acting close to reality. You wouldn't be able to play a Splinter Cell if in the mission the AI would act totally unpredictable as it is in reality.

Edited June 18, 2015 by chakkman

[Springheel]

Sotha said, "There are many ways to play a stealth game and all the ways are correct" and from that you got, "You expect a certain style of playing"?

[RPGista]

Sotha... Thank you.

 

Every mission should have your post nailed on the street walls where they put all those scrools for public announcements and stuff - for players to read before they start playing.

 

Not taking a swing at Chakkman hehe, your opinion is a valid one and I think actually most of the TDM missions so far work in that direction, complex AI pathing routines is something that is relatively new and not done to the extent of Sotha's and Grayman's missions in the majority of existing maps. Its just that dealing with AI reactions (as opposed to consistently avoiding them or KOing them before they can react) is a very fun aspect of the game that a good deal of players seem to be missing out. So being less of a stealth completionist and letting more stuff happen around you might open up new layers of cool gameplay to be had.

Edited June 19, 2015 by RPGista

[Sotha]

Chakkman, could you please explain in detail:

The maid found the body you left. Why was this bad for your experience?

 

You say you want to be in control and to be able to plan.

 

You can plan your actions. The unpredictability means you need to take the unpredictability into account.

 

Being in control. It is a game with random elements. You have full control over the player character, but having full control over the AI would not make any sense. You do have partial control over the AI with tools. Use them.

 

If the amount of AI is too much in some area, wait till they are alone and blackjack them. Clear the area and make it so that you can go past the area undetected with your skill level. There are plenty of places to hide the bodies. But there are also the risk of them being discovered. That is the price of the KO.

 

And if the bodies are discovered... well, it all goes back to the original question I asked but was left without an answer: So what? Why is it a bad thing if the body is found. It is not game over.

[chakkman]

Well, i wonder where i could hide the bodies then, if there's housemaids who walk around the whole house, even in areas which are locked (why would a simple housemaid do so? In a Lord's manor, you would think they won't let them in areas where you could find valuable things and stuff.). The room where i hid the body was locked, and i had to lockpick both doors. And i hid the body in a niche. I wouldn't have bet in the world that it could be found there (or that someone even enters, after i've been in there 10 minutes...). And yes, it does matter to me, because i want to avoid chaos. In the front hall for example, the example i further gave, it was a total mess. Not on real spot to hide, and 5 AI's at a time. And when there was finally a clear way (i thought) his lordships walks down the stairs (again, after being on the first floor for like half a minute, then comes back?), and of course goes exactly where i tried to hide. Well, that was quite annoying, so forgive me if i'm a bit frustrated about all that really. Never had such moments in the original Thief's, in Splinter Cell, or in Chronicles of Riddick. That's all i want to say. This mod and its missions give me a hard time pretty frequently, and it's those small niggles which sometimes make a big difference between something which is very enjoyable playable, or something which is frustrating. I really loved the start of the mission, but this really killed it a bit for me.

 

Btw, it's kind of the 101 of AI design to make the AI predictable and kind of dumbed down compared to real life behavior to make the game PLAYABLE. I give you another example: After i left the cell, and passed through the room with the Automaton in his alcove (if that's the correct word), i sneaked into the room of the inventor, and hid in a dark corner at the end of the room. The plan was to knock out the inventor when the automaton which also patrolled there just left the area, so i could knock the guy out without any trouble. The problem was that he behaved different every freaking time he entered the room. One time he just comes in, and gets back out again (so i thought that was his usual routine). Next time, he comes in, stands in front of the table, and stares and stares and stares, making it impossible for me to knock him out, and the automaton already patrolled again. Then the next time, he sat down on the chair in front of the fireplace, then stands up again when i just sneaked upon him, and walks out again. Well, that's absolutely unpredictable there, good job. Pretty unplayable for people who blackjack. Also, if it was like you said, and you like people to play in any style possible, why is there an objective in form of a limit of casualties of knocked out people on expert difficulty?

 

Sorry for the harsh words btw, i realize it's your freedom as an artist to do things the way you like them to be, and i do realize you do that as a hobby in your spare time, but for me, it's just giving me a hard time playing it, and i don't know why that is. And i don't know why TDM in general gives me such a hard time as someone who knocks out people, also with the recent introduction of AI reacting on falling knights in armor. It's just making things even more difficult as they already are. If Thief is difficult, TDM is like ultra hardcore violence for people who never played it. Hope you people do realize that after years of playing this.

Edited June 19, 2015 by chakkman

[VanishedOne]

I think I've said elsewhere that I play TDM with AI acuity on the second-to-lowest setting so that I can have some of my run-and-blackjack style from Thief rather than playing conservatively. I haven't had much frustration with unpredictable AI, but I do remember once sitting in a dark corner for what felt like ages because the AI had decided to use the room as some sort of thoroughfare. (The opposite case is rooms being left unattended for ages, but as a blackjacker of course I tend to bring that about on purpose.)

[SeriousToni]

Well, i wonder where i could hide the bodies then, if there's housemaids who walk around the whole house

 

Everywhere! You just need to knock out the housemaid too!

[Sotha]

If it is too difficult, do not play on expert difficulty. Choose the easier difficulty levels. That's what the easier difficulty levels are for, right? To give you easier time in order to avoid you not getting frustrated.

 

If the game is too hard, you can also tune the AI acuity in the options.

 

I do admit the mission lobby area was maybe too frequently traveled by AI. BUT! it always depends on patience. The area may be full of AI at one moment, but empty at the next moment. You can also switch off the light and dash through. Or you could blind the AI with a flashbomb and run past.

 

One of the principal benefits of RITs (the things that makes AI do different thing every time they arrive to a room) is that they make the AI more lifelike. There are some TDM missions where the AI are the usual robots-on-rail we are familiar with other commercial stealth games. I find them a bit boring.

 

In TDM, it is a big benefit that we can breath more life into the AI. Sure, it makes the missions more challenging, but -given the overwhelmingly positive feedback I've received for my missions- I think it is one of the stuff people like in TDM. It is clear you disagree and it is okay. I personally like it when AI behave similarily to real people.

 

And finally: what SeriousToni said! You could KO the AI and wait for some moments to see if someone else comes by. Or leave a mine there to do the guarding for you.

[chakkman]

Thanks guys for being able to discuss this without anyone getting offended, i feared that a bit, my posts being over the top a bit too.

 

As for the housemaid: It puzzles me a bit why she didn't storm out of the room, alerting other guards if she actually saw the body. Maybe she didn't even see it even though she lit the light which surely was out when i left the room. I can also understand the point of bringing more life to the AI by letting them act predictable, but i'm still convinced that there has to be a balance between playability and realism. It's that way in all games. I do have to admit though that most games these days are too dumbed down in terms of AI or gameplay mechanics. But i feel like in some TDM missions, especially the newer ones, it's a bit over the top. And i simply am used to predictable AI routines from stealth games, so i wonder if it really has to be in TDM. I'll have a go and see if i can get some settings though which are a bit more forgiving, as it is now, i feel like it's too balanced for ghost gameplay. Also lack spots where you can hide the bodies in most maps. Sort of the only place i found suitable in the beginning was the closet, but god knows if someone doesn't have to pee at some point with the AI being all over the place...

Edited June 19, 2015 by chakkman

[Springheel]

It puzzles me a bit why she didn't storm out of the room, alerting other guards if she actually saw the body. Maybe she didn't even see it

 

 

Wait, wasn't your complaint that it was too hard to hide the bodies, based on your conclusion that the housemaid found it? Now you're not sure she even saw it?

 

as it is now, i feel like it's too balanced for ghost gameplay.

 

 

I don't see how you get to that conclusion. I don't generally ghost, but I find it much easier to do so when the AI are completely predictable. When you aren't entirely sure what an AI is going to do, I find it encourages me to take them out when I have the chance, so I'm not surprised later.

[Destined]

I like the fact, that AI is not as predictable as in other games and am on the same page as Sotha there. But I also understand, that it usually increases difficulty, especially for people KO guards. I also thought about that point for my WIP and my plan is to increase the number of RITs with increasing difficulty. I do not know how much work this is. In my simple world it only means, that I have to deactivate "Target" lines for easier difficulties, which shold not be too much work. Maybe I am mistaken here and I have to write loads of script, but I think it is a nice way to tweak the difficulty. Maybe this is something, that other authors just haven't thought of yet and see it as an impulse to implement it. But at least for existing missions it is most likely too much work to implement now...

[chakkman]

 

Wait, wasn't your complaint that it was too hard to hide the bodies, based on your conclusion that the housemaid found it? Now you're not sure she even saw it?

 

 

 

Well, i was quite sure she did. But then, if she did she must have been alerted right? Actually when lighting the candle again, she must have seen it, but when she came out the door leading outside, she didn't seem alerted. Maybe the level of alert had already decreased before she came out. My point was rather that it was something i wouldn't have expected in any way, as the place seemed safe, as, as i said, i spent about 10 minutes in that room. I actually leaned at the door a couple of times to hear if someone is coming, but there were only the footsteps outside and above. See that's what i mean. Why give one the option to listen to footsteps leaning on doors and stuff like that if it's kind of random and unpredictable anyway if some AI enters the room 10 minutes later.

[Sotha]

Thanks guys for being able to discuss this without anyone getting offended, i feared that a bit, my posts being over the top a bit too.

 

 

You welcome! We are quite civilized around here. Your posts have been civil as well. Disagreements are okay, perhaps we all will learn something from each other.

 

 

 

I don't generally ghost, but I find it much easier to do so when the AI are completely predictable.

 

I do not ghost either. I don't see the point: a "ghostable" mission has the special requirement that all the AI look the other way at some point or are similarily "occasionally disabled" in gameplay terms. Or that there is a specially designed "path of darkness" that leads the player through the entire mission. This kind of design means that there is a single one superior way to beat the missions, which is not good in my opinion. I like it when the mission is challenging, requires tool use, gives the tools and allows the player to figure the rest by themselves.

 

When I play, the procedure looks like this:

I avoid save/loading. I might save a few times, just to have a fallback position if I die suddenly. But I never load if I make a mistake. I load if I die. This makes the game more exciting and interesting. Savescumming (i.e save, take a step, get discovered, load, take a step, get discovered, load, take a step, do not get discovered, save, repeat...) kills all excitement for me: the mission becomes a chore.

Observe and evaluate situation

If it looks like I can avoid the AI, I will do so and continue.

If some AI are clearly present a high risk (they spend too long time in an area or they clearly observe the route I need to take), I try to look for another way. If that is not possible, I must and I will eliminate them. If I do eliminate, I need to take care of the mess (bodies, blood, weapons).

 

Playing without using tools is odd: why make it more difficult for yourself, when you could just use a tool and get easy time. Using tools is fun, too! A nice distraction + gas arrow can take out a roomful of guards and that is H I L A R I O U S!

 

Well, i was quite sure she did. But then, if she did she must have been alerted right? Actually when lighting the candle again, she must have seen it, but when she came out the door leading outside, she didn't seem alerted.

 

 

If she was alerted, then she searched a bit around the body, then gave up and resumed her normal patrol spreading the word of the body as she met other AI. I still do not see why this is problematic. It happens. It is part of the game. The coders have created the behavior. It makes sense. It makes stuff a bit more challenging but it doesn't end the game.

 

She is a witness you can eliminate if you do not like her to spread information about the intruder.

 

Why give one the option to listen to footsteps leaning on doors and stuff like that if it's kind of random and unpredictable anyway if some AI enters the room 10 minutes later.

 

 

So that you can hear someone is walking outside before opening the door? The feature does not have anything to do with AI predictability per se. It is just a tool to hear if someone is moving around before you make your move.

[chakkman]

Alright. I was actually under the impression that most missions are "ghost" proof, meaning that there's no spot you wouldn't be able to pass through without taking AI's out of the game. But true, when making the AI paths more unpredictable, you're making it tougher to find a ghost path too.

 

Anyway, maybe the way i play, and my whole approach towards the game is a bit hindering too, don't want to deny that. I'll give it another go later, this time with a little more patience maybe, and keeping in mind the things posted here.

[Sotha]

Anyway, maybe the way i play, and my whole approach towards the game is a bit hindering too, don't want to deny that. I'll give it another go later, this time with a little more patience maybe, and keeping in mind the things posted here.

 

It would please me greatly if you one day gave it another go with a less-hindered approach.

 

I, on the other hand, will try to remember the stuff mentioned here when I map again. Some criticism, indeed, had its place (that silly lobby. To be fully honest: The lobby is the core choke point of the whole mission. The central nexus. Everyone passed through that way. I never was quite satisfied with it when I worked with the map, but ultimately fixing the crowdiness would have required large map redesign, which I didn't want to do in order to get it released one day) and there is always room to improve and learn something new. Such is progress: we learn by doing.

 

Thanks!

[chakkman]

Thanks dude. I really enjoyed your other missions btw, maybe that's even the reason i'm being a bit overly critical with this one, even though, as i said, i enjoyed the start a lot too. Or maybe it's due to not having too much time to play anymore and hence forgetting how to play this game.

[Wallace]

Hey,

 

playing Sotha's first Ulysses missions atm. While i really love the mission so far, it showed me once again a problem i already discovered in other missions, grayman's "In the north" mission to mention especially. and that is the in parts excessively long paths A.I.'s walk in some missions. While i can understand that some may think it adds to realism and unpredictability, it makes it damn hard to hide bodies for example. For example, in Sotha's mission, i blackjacked the guy working in the steamworks, and hid his body in a nearby room i lockpicked, in a niche which was lit by a candle on the wall, which i extinguished. I spent about 5 minutes in that room, searching for loot, or items to pick up. In these 5 minutes, noone entered, or left the room. Then i went out of the room, and got to an outdoor area in front of the manor. I spent about another minute and a half hiding in the dark behind a crate, to see what's going on outside, and even blackjacke a guard patrolling outside in that time, then all of a sudden, the door i came out of opens, and some housemaid comes out. So i went inside again to see where the hell she came from now, and realized she had even lit the candle again, and probably saw the body of the blackjacked steamworker too.

 

Guys, isn't that a bit too much? I mean, as i wrote, i can understand the added realism and all that, but for playability, it has to be a bit predictable. Stealth games don't work without a bit of predictability. In reality, you won't stand a chance in most cases due to the way real people behave, how unpredictable they are, and coincidence. In a game, i have at least to rely a bit on things i can foresee, and i can't foresee a housemaid entering the place i hid a body after like 10 minutes, lighting the torch i extinguished to darken the niche i hid the body in. That's a tad too much really. It makes it almost impossible to know where you can hide a body so that noone stumbles over it. It has always been predictable in the original Thief games, it's predictable in games like Splinter Cell or Chromicles of Riddick too. So please, consider there's also people who blackjack everyone in sight, and need to hide the bodies somewhere. There's not only people who ghost missions.

 

As i said, that's not to say i don't enjoy the missions, and this one in particular, it's really great, and it's awesome how creative some people here are. Just felt like mentioning this, because TDM really gives me a damn hard sometimes. I mentioned it in another thread already: The original Thief games were considered as very hard games by most of the game press. TDM is a lot more harder even. At least my personal view is that it could be a little bit easier sometimes.

 

 

I disagree, you've just described how guard paths SHOULD be in stealth games. Stealth is all about tension. Tension is quickly lost if guards are just going from A-B along a corridor and back. A game like metal gear you can pretty much hide behind a crate and know 100% you will not be found. Where's the threat in that?

 

Wondering if a guard might stumble upon your position should be a constant, uneasy feeling, rather than sitting in a corner knowing for certain you will never, ever be found. That constant sense of threat is the essence of good stealth gameplay.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Wallace

[Airship Ballet]

Wondering if a guard might stumble upon your position should be a constant, uneasy feeling, rather than sitting in a corner knowing for certain you will never, ever be found. That constant sense of threat is the essence of good stealth gameplay.

Ugh, my God. There's this game that's been finished recently, called Monstrum. It puts the player on a randomly generated cargo ship, and spawns one of three terribly scary monsters patrolling it. These monsters patrol entirely at random, but you're guaranteed to end up in their vicinity rather quickly. One big guy is really sensitive to sound, another crawls around the air vents looking for you. One enemy, a psychic, telekinetic thing, actually homes in on your general direction the whole time. He makes the lights flicker around you, the only warning you get. If you hang around, he'll find you eventually, so really you have to sprint away the moment the lights start flickering and hope you don't bump into him. It's seriously terrifying, owing to it being entirely unscripted. The monsters patrol, looking for you, and they will eventually find you and start chasing you. Whereas Alien: Isolation was a pretty huge letdown in this regard, Monstrum is ridiculously tense. You get the feeling of being constantly hunted, never safe as you go around looking for tools to fix and use escape routes, and that's because of the completely freeform AI. It's pretty scary! I haven't recorded anything of my own, but a friend of mine did. I've no idea how he retained the ability to to crack wise throughout, because I coped far worse while playing it. You should check out the game if a "constant sense of threat" is what you like in your stealthy vidya.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6gdlmOlojc

[SeriousToni]

Wow that game looks incredibly awesome! Gonna test this out asap! Thanks for the hint!

 

Back to the topic if randomness is good or bad I believe the best way to do is to avoid both: static-only and random-only paths.

Static paths make the game predictable and boring, but random paths make it confusing and stressful (especially if you don't knock out every AI in the map on sight).

 

So I see two compromises for this:

Use a basic static route for your NPCs and add a little randomness to it by either making the wait time between two points random or add some little side paths to the main route that could possibly used on random with a lesser chance.

Or you could make the randomness factor tied to the difficulty level. So someone who plays on normal will get mostly static routes and another player who takes it on expert will have many random routes.

 

What do you guys think?