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Guards noticing missing patrols


SeriousToni

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I really don't know if this has been brought up somewhere yet, but as I recently play Dishonored for the first time I was thinking if this feature could also be used in TDM. In Dishonored when you blackjack a guard and hide his corpse, and then another one comes buy, he says something like "Shouldn't be someone around here patroling this area?". That is really nice for me as a player as I see the AI reacting to my machinations in the world. ^_^

 

Wouldn't this also be possible to do in TDM? I mean we already have absence markers placed, when you steal something valuable (and the mapper flags it). Couln't we do the same for AI patrols, like placing a marker on the place you BJ / killed him? On the other hand we would need a lot of new speech files for the AI to record. :unsure:

 

What do you guys think?

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"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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I recommended we make generic markers for AI reactions which allow the mapper to specify the category of AI bark in their spawnargs. This is another example.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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We have no barks for that circumstance. It's also not clear why AI should immediately notice if a guard is missing, since our AI could be off doing RIT.

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A scripted event by the mapper?

 

1) Guard A and B patrol near each other.

2) Guard A is ko/killed.

3) A script fires that waits for a time interval set by the mapper.

4) Guard B fires a conversation which makes him say "WTF, where is Bobby? " And possible makes him look around asking for his pal.

 

A chore to do, yes, but maybe better than a simple bark. Could be very useful in high-security areas or one important choke point of the map.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Desperados: Wanted Dead or Alive has AIs becoming alerted when they notice missing guards, wouldn't mind if such a thing is added to TDM, make it more realistic and make you think twice before taking out the blackjack.

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"Let me guess - little blue men with three heads stole your sweetroll?"

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We have no barks for that circumstance. It's also not clear why AI should immediately notice if a guard is missing, since our AI could be off doing RIT.

 

Indeed. That is why I thought it would be useful to set it up by the mapper, just like the stolen items. (it would also not be very nice if every ai sees every missing loot and gets alert, so we have the possibility to set it up as a flag in the editor). Just think of it like the missing loot, just for a missing AI.

 

I don't intend to make this a standard, but it could add a lot of immersion if setup in the right points on a map (or only applying to stationary guard posts).

 

The proposal by Sotha also seems okay, but I don't see the connection of time interval and script firing yet, as the true condition should be that the second guard visits the area where the KOed first guard had his guard post. Also this gets difficult if you have more than one other AI patroling that area.

Edited by SeriousToni

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Would the following scenario be possible ?

 

Say have a guard room, when an AI leaves for a patrol script a timer, if the AI returns cancel the timer, if the AI doesn't return the timer expires and the other guards become alerted and go looking for them.

 

Maybe even have a couple of timers one expires then the remaining AI start wondering where the other one is, next timer they get up & go searching

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Since you can control alerts by script, anything is possible. The catch is communicating it to the player, which is why AI barks would.be nice to have too.

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What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Nice idea, I like it! With that you could finally stop the mass black jacking! Say if you BJ a lot of guards in the mansion they remaining ones will get a higher alert level until where they in the end even draw their swords out and patrol on special routes rather then the normal ones. :)

 

You'd have to communicate this feature somehow though to the players. Maybe even in the mission intro "If I knock too many of them out, they will get quite suspicious" or in the difficulty settings screen before the mission.

 

Best way would be ingame barks, like demagogue said.

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Nice idea, I like it! With that you could finally stop the mass black jacking!.

Why would that be a desirable goal?

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Say if you BJ a lot of guards in the mansion they remaining ones will get a higher alert level until where they in the end even draw their swords out and patrol on special routes rather then the normal ones. :)

This should only happen if the guards are actually meeting regularily, otherwise it makes no sense. Maybe the meeting points could be marked with a bark if the other guard is missing...

Edited by wesp5
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Why would that be a desirable goal?

 

Yes, good question. That is what I want to find out actually! :) I can only speak for myself as I'm not a game designer or TDM dev member, so: For me it happens often, that I knock out most of the AI in a map, if possible. It's making things a lot easier, because you can move around more quickly and safely. I do this because the game isn't doesn't punish me for this. There is the problem of hiding corpses, yes, but you mostly find a safe place for this somewhere around quickly.

On the other hand, I don't fight with the guards, because I suck at it and I mostly lose my life or get caught by the reinforcements, which makes the game a lot harder if you get into an open fight.

So what I'm searching for is a downside of blackjacking people, and I think alerting some special guards at some special outposts with some fitting barks would be a nice thing to solve this problem and gives a lot of immersion. I'm not talking about making everything count, but only the places / guards that make sense for the mission to count in.

 

This should only happen if the guards are actually meeting regularily, otherwise it makes no sense. Maybe the meeting points could be marked with a bark if the other guard is missing...

 

Yes, this has to be placed by the mapper in the right way to make sense. It shouldn't be a common thing to happen.

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"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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I don't think it'd necessarily be good generally. I think it'd be good for special areas that you want to make a special challenge for the player, and something a little different from the norm.

 

If the player thinks guards will notice one off their patrol and want to investigate, they'll stop and think about it, which makes for an interesting gameplay setup.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Yes, good question. That is what I want to find out actually! :) I can only speak for myself as I'm not a game designer or TDM dev member, so: For me it happens often, that I knock out most of the AI in a map, if possible. It's making things a lot easier, because you can move around more quickly and safely. I do this because the game isn't doesn't punish me for this. There is the problem of hiding corpses, yes, but you mostly find a safe place for this somewhere around quickly.

On the other hand, I don't fight with the guards, because I suck at it and I mostly lose my life or get caught by the reinforcements, which makes the game a lot harder if you get into an open fight.

 

 

I feel the same way in Thief and The Dark Mod.

Unless I know the and the map layout patrols very well like with Deadly Shadows.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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I like the idea, where it makes sense (stationary guards who're guarding something important). But since we don't have suitable barks in existing vocal sets, it'd be hard to set up. It's easier to make those guards hard to BJ in some other way, i.e. placing 2+ stationary guards who can see one another.

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Its an old request, I think it dates at least as far as 2010. I theorized about it myself, a while back. I think its just common sense, with possibilities of making it ever more interesting for the mapper and the player.

 

It should be done manually, through entities and spawnargs. Like the missing loot you guys mentioned. The mapper would know when to apply it, and would build the map accordingly.

 

I dont think any new dialogue is required. A simple "huh?" would suffice, its not like the AI needs to say out loud their every thought. The player, using common sense, would know when to expect a missing guard to be noticed, by watching the patrols. This would indeed add more depth to blackjacking playstyles. Some guards are good to take out, some are not, without possible repercutions.

 

I think AI shouldnt really "know" a tagged AI has been knocked out. This is not necessarily true, the missing AI might be out looking for player. The missing factor would still apply in this case - the other guard would want to know where the first one is.

 

I remember proposing a timer, on the patrol nodes. If the AI doesnt make it through the node in time, that would be the clue for other AI (tagged with the "knowledge" of who should be in the patrol) to suspect and go look for him. Perhaps following more or less that same patrol path. So only certain AI would be noticed if gone, and only by other certain AI who would know about that particular patrol path.

 

Stuff like RIT or big sprawling patrol paths might make the timing difficult, but its only a matter of designing a patrol for this specific purpose, for that particular AI only.

Edited by RPGista
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I think AI shouldnt really "know" a tagged AI has been knocked out. This is not necessarily true, the missing AI might be out looking for player. The missing factor would still apply in this case - the other guard would want to know where the first one is.

 

The condition of placing the "guard missing marker" should not be if it leaves its position, but if the ai gets killed or blackjacked. Then on that position where the player killed / KOed the ai, the marker would be placed.

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Well, the suspicious guard coming in has no way of knowing what happened to the other guard who is missing - thats the whole point, nobody saw him getting KOed or killed or attracted by the player, they just know he is nowhere to be found. So, if a guard is supposed to be at his post or on his patrol, and isnt, no matter what the reason, the other guard(s) would still get suspicious. Even if he is still alive, hunting the player somewhere.

 

There are all sorts of buffers to be made here, for sure. The timing thing, the missing marker (or whatever it might be) would probably have to be gradual. You wouldnt want guards to suddenly run around sounding the alarm because some guard is 1 minute delayed in his patrol. But say, you are going around on your own patrol, and its the second time now you pass by and notice the gate guard is not at his post, you would probably investigate it, take a look around.

Edited by RPGista
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Again, this would probably only work if you can control not only who gets to get noticed when missing, but also who does the "noticing", who is aware of other guys' patrols. This would keep maids or random AI to spot a "missing marker" and get alerted for something he shouldnt know (what could create chaos for nothing). But if you have two guards standing in the same courtyard and one looks away for a second, and then suddenly the other guy just disappeared by the time he turns around, you would notice that. So the mapper would need to control who is aware of who.

Edited by RPGista
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  • 3 months later...

As a blackjack-centric player i really would love selected AI detecting missing comrades as a new spice enriching my gaming experience.

I would also abuse that behaviour to lure guards away from their routes when it makes sense to do so. So it would probably not always make missions just harder but could also be used to provide another way for distracting guards otherwise really hard to distract without raising the alarm.

 

The implementation should be bound to the vigilant AI that could notice other AI missing. That AI would at least need a variable for each tracked other AI containing the count of missed detections in a row. Depending on implementation of the detection algorithm more variables may be needed.

Reactions of the detecting AI could range from sometimes barking over becomming more alert and even searching for the comrade to raising the alarm. Most often a missing guard should neither instantly trigger searching nor finally result in raising the alarm.

Typical reactions for the common low-life guard would likely be to only bark for two or three non-ecounters, starting to search for the missing AI after that (not the player, but that does not matter when player gets spotted in the process) - maybe getting other AIs to search too (but they would not raise to the same alert level as when searching for an intruder as they only search for a comrade maybe sleeping at work). But after a while all AI would just go back to regular patrolling patterns.

Reactions might also get less intense when AIs get missing but then be detected again to lessen the increase of annoyingness of path-finding-bugs as they are still common enough even in recent missions.

Because of the same issue most AI-missing detection implementations should always treat AIs as non-missing when hearing their voice or seeing them - regardless of the comrade beeing on the right patrol route or spot to guard.

 

The detection of missing AI could be implemented in different ways depending on the expected movement pattern of the other AI:

- Not seeing the other AI when visiting specific places

- Completing own patrol N times without seeing the other AI even once.

- Same as obove but based on not hearing a response for saying something like "everything okay there?" (normally answered by something like "everything okay."). That would obviously need additional voice recordings.

- Checking an automaton (or beeing that automaton) regularly to be used with a special token or combination by other AI (dead-man switch). That token (maybe a key) or combination could also be used by the player but would involve regularly comming back to operate the device. The player coukld also maybe able to rig (pick) that device up, so it never goes into alert state.

- Like the dead-man-switch above but one AI sets it while other resets it and one or both detect missing counterparts by missing status changes. Straight forward ingame implementation would be a locked switch controlling an electric light.

 

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Stationary AI should be the only ones this is applied to. Leave it at the mapper's discretion.

 

A guard not on patrol could simply mean to another guard that he had to go to the bathroom or get some food. It doesn't necessarily mean that the guard should think first thing that "a thief is in our midst" !

 

:-)

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Stationary AI should be the only ones this is applied to. Leave it at the mapper's discretion.

Making any missing AI detection algorithm would indeed induce a ton of gameplay bugs in old and new FMs and the developers surely know that too. So yes, its only about algorithms and assets for mappers to use. It would ease the life of mappers a little bit to have some generic voice assets fitting generic missing AI detection scenarios in the official game for example. Also maybe there are otherwise good algorithms that might impede performance when implemented by map scripting.

 

A guard not on patrol could simply mean to another guard that he had to go to the bathroom or get some food. It doesn't necessarily mean that the guard should think first thing that "a thief is in our midst" !

But not seeing your comrade patroling for half an hour in a high security prison should induce some fear and maybe gets ya to start checking the cells or at least stops ya from sleeping this shift.

Beeing yourself the noble owning the place and not seeing some guard on his post could also make ya tell the captain to go look for and boot that guard immediately.

A gang member might notice the sudden disappearance of his buddy when coming back from taking a piss.

 

There are countless possible settings that might profit from using (different) missing AI detection algorithms and reacting in some (situation-dependent) ways. Reaction would not always have to include searching, drawing the sword

or alerting the surroundings. Even when alerting the surrounding it would most often not be logical to search for the player but for the missing AI or checking some spot or that some item is still where it should be.

It is a little like having traps in missions. We got way to few of them too. But AI even just reacting in any way to not seeing anyone in a house that felt like an ant hill before i was going full blackjacking berserk would really add something to the experience.

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Just my two cents. AI should have at least a 15 minute window before they arouse some suspicion from a missing ally.

 

Also, AI awareness of missing patrols should be customized by mappers.

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Just my two cents. AI should have at least a 15 minute window before they arouse some suspicion from a missing ally.

 

 

I think that would confuse the players, as everything that doesn't happen immediately or in their line of sight will not be comprehensible. 15 minutes is definitely something that counts to this.

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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