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Blackjacking. What the hell.


Cynical

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So, I know that blackjacking was supposedly made easier in 2.02, but I still can't make work even 5% of the time.

 

Even against civilians.

 

I can bonk them perfectly right on the back of the head without them being suspicious at all, and they just yelp in pain and turn to fight me.

 

What *exactly* is it looking for? I know the wiki claims that against civilians, all it wants is either unalerted or you behind them, and against helmeted guards you need both unalerted and behind, but it's obviously looking for something more than this; I can literally walk up right behind a completely unalert civilian and when I blackjack them, it does nothing but piss them off.

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So, I know that blackjacking was supposedly made easier in 2.02, but I still can't make work even 5% of the time.

 

Even against civilians.

 

I can bonk them perfectly right on the back of the head without them being suspicious at all, and they just yelp in pain and turn to fight me.

 

What *exactly* is it looking for? I know the wiki claims that against civilians, all it wants is either unalerted or you behind them, and against helmeted guards you need both unalerted and behind, but it's obviously looking for something more than this; I can literally walk up right behind a completely unalert civilian and when I blackjack them, it does nothing but piss them off.

 

In regards to blackjacking I guess TDM is a bit more realistic vs Thief 1/2 and while some dislike that because of the increased difficulty some like it.

 

If you notice that a guard has metal shoulder pads on then usually they cannot be blackjacked but if its just the raw shoulders then it is easier to blackjack, also if they no helmet on then its even easier. A bit of advice that I found useful in my early TDM days is that if you aim the black jack diagonally between the ear and the shoulder then it should be a one hit KO.

 

It does require a bit of practice and some skill but once you start successfully blackjacking people TDM style you will feel like a proper master thief! ;)

Edited by Goldwell
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If I recall correctly (if I had time I'd retest it really quickly, but I don't...), you should stand a bit back, and you're actually aiming for the blackjack to hit the base of the neck at its full extension, the place where the spine meets the head, or maybe a bit above it.

 

A typical kind of failure is a person is too close and rather than the blackjack, their arm hits the back of the head, as if they were aiming for the blackjack going to the top of the head, but the arc the arm goes doesn't like that.

 

Anyway, try what I said, practice it some even, and see if that helps any.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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My impression is that targets are going to the alerted state too fast. Like you approach and mid-swing you hear "Hm?" or something and it's all over, jackable from un-jackable in a second! I think it would be better if they would get un-jackable only after some seconds or even after turning around to see what made the noise. Actually I don´t really understand why there is such a big difference there at all, especially for not helmeted NPCs. It wouldn`t help them at all being alerted! Was it like this is Thief 1/2/3?

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No, it definitely was not that way in T1 and T2 (can't speak for T3, haven't played it since my first playthrough when it was originally released, because it sucks. Can't speak for ThiAf either, didn't bother playing it at all, Eidos Montreal sucks and shouldn't be trusted with that license in the first place). In those games, once you had been detected, there was a period of about a second during which you could still blackjack a guard.

 

Also, the targeting wasn't nearly as finicky. If you got the blackjack on them at all, it was good enough. I'm thinking that it's mostly the "you can't be too close" thing that's causing me problems (it seems like the closest you can be in TDM is further than the furthest you're allowed to be in the Thief games),

 

On a side note, the entire concept of "hit the helmeted guard in the back of the neck!" makes no sense from a real-world perspective, since a blackjack works by accelerating the head forward fast enough to cause the back of the brain to impact the skull.

Edited by Cynical
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Blackjack in this game uses realistic targetting, so the trajectory of the blackjack is calculated and the success is determined from that. It's not hard once you get the hang of it. There's a mission called "Blackjack Trainer" that allows you to practice it.

You can call me Phi, Numbers, Digits, Ratio, 16, 1618, or whatever really, as long as it's not Phil.

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Guards definitely do alert too quickly. This has been a problem since forever, although blackjacking has improved in recent versions. Ironically, it also doesn't help that the AI has become more intelligent - approaches that worked in 1.1 or 1.2 are harder now that they pay more attention to their environment.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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The problem with "realistic targeting" as a design goal is that we don't have realistic vision or realistic control over our hand position. All we have is a relatively low-resolution monocular image with no depth information, and a fixed blackjack animation that is only visible for a few frames.

Requiring the player to be in exactly the right position and aim at exactly the right point on the head at exactly the right time therefore isn't (in my opinion) providing any gameplay benefit. It's just difficulty for the sake of difficulty, so all the players who practise for hours can say "Look, I'm really awesome because I can finally blackjack guards 95% of the time" while the new and casual players are left out in the cold.

 

(Although I suspect in this case it's not so much that it's specifically intended to be difficult, it's just that the current implementation happens to be difficult and the heavy bias towards hardcore players has resulted in relatively few complaints).

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So, I know that blackjacking was supposedly made easier in 2.02, but I still can't make work even 5% of the time.

 

Even against civilians.

 

I can bonk them perfectly right on the back of the head without them being suspicious at all, and they just yelp in pain and turn to fight me.

 

What *exactly* is it looking for? I know the wiki claims that against civilians, all it wants is either unalerted or you behind them, and against helmeted guards you need both unalerted and behind, but it's obviously looking for something more than this; I can literally walk up right behind a completely unalert civilian and when I blackjack them, it does nothing but piss them off.

 

This doesn't sound right at all...and if what you're describing is accurate, then I can't see it being user error. The system is not designed to be impossible, simply provide a little extra challenge so that you're not able to knock out an AI by tapping him on the shoulder or his toe, but it doesn't require pin point accuracy. Something else has to be going on.

 

Did you run an update or a fresh install of the latest build? I'm just wondering if an old file has accidentally been kept and is mucking things up. I haven't heard of anyone else experiencing these issues since the bug fixes.

 

Is this happening in every mission you try? Can you upload a video of this happening? I haven't looked at blackjacking since I corrected the issues causing problems way back when, but what you're describing is not how the system should be working at this point. If the AI are not alert and you hit them in the back of the head, all should be well. Also, if they're unhelmeted civilians, you can blackjack them from pretty much anywhere, the knockout cone is large.

 

The problem with standing too close was fixed as well, there should be no need to stand back further as people are suggesting. That's an old tip that is no longer necessary.

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Guards definitely do alert too quickly. This has been a problem since forever, although blackjacking has improved in recent versions.

Can't there just be a small delay added before they become alerted, like another second of two? Or can it be made that they can still be blackjacked in their first alert state? Like before they draw their swords they are vulnerable and only when the sword is full out it's too late!

Edited by wesp5
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Or bias towards repeat players. Once you have a feel for where the box is, and that you need to hit it, the failure count drops.

 

Edit. Wow, triple ninja'd on this post.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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As for the action, wasn't it planned to make blackjacking from closer distance possible?

 

Yep, that was done. The problem was that the collision box for the blackjack was too big, and it if you did stand too close it would clip through the knockout cone on the AI's head and hit their forehead, causing the AI to alert, even though the player had been in the correct position. The blackjack collision box was reduced and that was no longer an issue. There has to be something else going on here....unless something completely broke the changes I made, but as I said I have not seen or heard any complaints since the changes went into effect.

 

 

Or bias towards repeat players. Once you have a feel for where the box is, and that you need to squarely hit it, the failure count drops.

 

 

The requirement for pinpoint accuracy was a bug. That should no longer be the case here. As long as you're in the general blackjacking area, you should be fine. The accuracy increases a bit more with helmeted guards, but not to the point of being impossible.

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The problem was that the collision box for the blackjack was too big, and it if you did stand too close it would clip through the knockout cone on the AI's head and hit their forehead, causing the AI to alert, even though the player had been in the correct position. The blackjack collision box was reduced and that was no longer an issue.

 

Is it possible that reducing the size of the collision box could cause the issues the OP is seeing? It seems to me that the collision box should be relatively large in order to forgive the player for not being able to aim the strike precisely, but the collision check should ignore any surfaces whose normal vectors point away from the player to prevent issues like hitting the forehead or other forward-facing parts of the AI model.

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There's lots of misinformation going around in this thread. Quick corrections:

 

1. Shoulder armour has nothing to do with blackjacking.

2. AI don't become alert because you start swinging. They aren't aware of swinging blackjacks at all, until and unless you actually hit them.

3. You can still blackjack guards for a second after they've been alerted.

4. "pinpoint accuracy" is not needed. You just have to hit anywhere on their head (or anywhere on the back half of their head if they have a helmet or are alerted).

 

Here is an (older) video talking about how to blackjack:

 

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I can literally walk up right behind a completely unalert civilian

TDM AI get alerted by collision with the player, so in this example it sounds as though you might actually be touching them.

 

I doubt you're doing that in every case, though. As a keen blackjacker myself, I actually play with the AI acuity dialled down a bit, so I can take some of the run-and-blackjack risks I can in Thief. But a sub-5% rate sounds like more than that.

 

You can view the knockout cones by typing "tdm_ai_showko 1" into the console. (Changing the number to 0 turns that back off.)

Edited by VanishedOne

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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I have no trouble at all just smacking unaware people's backs. I never have to aim, literally just look at them from any angle behind them and swing, and they go down. I've never had difficulty with it at all, and it's usually the sort of thing I mess up in other games. Other than my swing hitting low ceilings or light brackets, I've never had any consistent trouble, so I find it hard to believe it's anywhere near as precise as is being suggested.

Edited by Airship Ballet
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I have no trouble at all just smacking unaware people's backs.

Well, you and most others here are TDM veterans so nothing else is to be expected ;). I play a TDM mission now and then when I have nothing else to play and strange things happen sometimes. I usually blackjack everyone that I can to explore in peace. Now recently I did notice that some guards indeed react too quickly. It's probably not the swing itself but the last step I take getting out of cover to reach someone a little bit off. They say "Huh?" and are invincible right away! This should be changed in my opinion. I had another case where someone half turned to me and I could still blackjack him, so is there a difference between whether they heard me or saw me? As I suggested, why not make the invincible once their sword is completely out? As fas as I know this is the visible cue for guards that are invincible from the start, no?

Edited by wesp5
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They say "Huh?" and are invincible right away!

 

 

If this is actually happening, it's a bug, as that's not the way the system is designed to work.

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Is it possible that reducing the size of the collision box could cause the issues the OP is seeing? It seems to me that the collision box should be relatively large in order to forgive the player for not being able to aim the strike precisely, but the collision check should ignore any surfaces whose normal vectors point away from the player to prevent issues like hitting the forehead or other forward-facing parts of the AI model.

 

No, it wouldn't cause issues like this. The fixes I made corrected all the issues like this. The box is still large, but it was too long originally, so if the player was too close, the tip of the box would extend through the knockout cone and hit the front of the players head...thus causing an erroneous alert. I tested rigorously from all different distances and positions. There is definitely something going on with their local installation.

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