Knocking out Blinded AI

[Springheel]

They way lighting bombs (or lightning mines - they're even more useless) are currently working doesn't make them very useful tools.

 

Maybe you're just not using them in the right way. Flashbombs are currently extremely effective for escapes (being blocked by AI notwithstanding). You can easily run through an entire section of the map with one or two flashbombs. The only downside is that it leaves the AI alerted, which is only a problem if you have to go through that section again. If you could use them to easily knock all the AI out, then that would remove the only downside.

[VanishedOne]

I wonder how big and populous the 'typical' TDM map is compared to the 'typical' Thief mission. I sometimes use the flash-and-blackjack gambit in Thief when lighting/surfaces/groups make stealth blackjacking hard or impossible, and usually patrols are spaced out sufficiently, and flashbombs sufficiently uncommon, that I still knock out almost all the AI in the usual way.

 

Edit: of course, sometimes an AI comes along just as I'm swinging my blackjack around on the well lit, noisy floor. Usually when that was my last flashbomb.

Edited January 23, 2016 by VanishedOne

[Nightcrawler]

 

Maybe you're just not using them in the right way. Flashbombs are currently extremely effective for escapes (being blocked by AI notwithstanding). You can easily run through an entire section of the map with one or two flashbombs. The only downside is that it leaves the AI alerted, which is only a problem if you have to go through that section again. If you could use them to easily knock all the AI out, then that would remove the only downside.

 

The second downside is that you have to know the area you want to pass running before. Otherwise you'll get lost very easily

 

I'm not saying that you should use flashbombs for easily knocking out ALL the AI's:

 

I also have a better idea now of what exactly should be changed of the behaviour of blinded AIs: They simply should be knock-outable like unalerted AIs.

When you blind an unhelmed and unalarmed AI you can knock him easily out (even from the front). However if he was alarmed before and you blind him he staggers around helplessly as before but he cannot be knocked out. That makes no sense to me...

The alertness level shouldn't matter here.

 

I just want the flashbombs to be a bit more useful and the blinded fellows to act a bit more realistic.

 

I know you fear that even this will make some levels too easy. But consider that in general flashbombs (and unhelmed guards) are quite rare in tdm levels; which will prevent an overuse of that "flash-and-blackjack gambit" by the player.

[Springheel]

But consider that in general flashbombs (and unhelmed guards) are quite rare in tdm levels;

 

 

Not in my experience.

[wesp5]

 

I just want the flashbombs to be a bit more useful and the blinded fellows to act a bit more realistic.

 

I know you fear that even this will make some levels too easy.

Good luck with getting the TDM team to change something to be more reakistic that could possibly make some existing missions easier! I still remember my plea to make small oil lamps snuffable and how that was turned down ...

[Springheel]

I still remember my plea to make small oil lamps snuffable and how that was turned down ...

 

 

Yeah, and the rest of us can't forget either since you can't seem to stop talking about it.

[wesp5]

 

Yeah, and the rest of us can't forget either since you can't seem to stop talking about it.

That's exactly my intention ! Because however cool TDM is, in my opinion you are rather stubborn regarding changes and before Nightcrawler experiences the same disappointment with his reasonable suggestion, I better warn him ...

[Bikerdude]

I still remember my plea to make small oil lamps snuffable...

Er.... have you played Behind Closed Doors, because with the models Dragofer made for me I did exactly that!

 

And its a simple enough job of repurposing the entity def and making the relevant skins to make any static light entity frobable.

[Springheel]

That's exactly my intention

in my opinion you are rather stubborn regarding changes and before Nightcrawler experiences the same disappointment with his reasonable suggestion, I better warn him

 

Right, because we didn't like one of your suggestions (we did implement other things you suggested, as I recall).

 

The inability to stop talking about the time you didn't get your way is generally considered unappealing in anyone over the age of two.

[SeriousToni]

If you have a gas arrow knockouts are even easier. Equipment is meant to make things easy that would otherwise be difficult or impossible.

 

But gas arrows are way more expensive as flash bombs, aren't they?

[Springheel]

Has anyone actually tested to see if you can KO blinded guards (sans helmets) from behind? If you can't, then that's a bug.

[Bikerdude]

Has anyone actually tested to see if you can KO blinded guards (sans helmets) from behind? If you can't, then that's a bug.

Im sure I was able to do this to the builder in the training mission, if no one pipes up I will do a test video.

[Nightcrawler]

Has anyone actually tested to see if you can KO blinded guards (sans helmets) from behind? If you can't, then that's a bug.

 

I tested it extensively in the training mission to see how blinded guards act. You can knock out an unalerted and blinded guard (without helmet) from any direction, if he was alerted before knock-outs work only from behind.

However I didn't test the behaviour of helmet guards so far.

[VanishedOne]

 

But gas arrows are way more expensive as flash bombs, aren't they?

Yes, but then they let you accomplish a knockout from a distance. Flash bombs let you briefly blind guards within a decent radius, but anyone not 'dealt with' after a few seconds will be searching for you.

[wesp5]

And its a simple enough job of repurposing the entity def and making the relevant skins to make any static light entity frobable.

Yes, I have changed my setup with the suggestions at the time and the easy way it is possible makes it even more strange that it was never considered to even add it to the options. Anyway, back to the original topic, I would have suggested a "kick" key to move guards out of the way a long time ago, but I can imagine how this would have been recepted...

Edited January 24, 2016 by wesp5

[wesp5]

 

Right, because we didn't like one of your suggestions (we did implement other things you suggested, as I recall).

Yeah, and as I recall I had to post these over and over too before one of you bothered to implement them! In other cases you just closed my bug trackers with the comment, that there was too little discussion...

[Destined]

Anyway, back to the original topic, I would have suggested a "kick" key to move guards out of the way a long time ago, but I can imagine how this would have been recepted...

 

I believe something like that has already been suggested and discussed before (as Springheel mentioned, see first post in this thread) and I believe, apart from the reasons discussed here, a kick would require a lot of work, not only in scripting, but also in new animations etc. I sometimes get the impression, that you don't realise how much work needs to be done in order to implement a couple of the features you suggested. The extinguishable lamps are not that difficult to make (it still took me some time to figure it out for you, because I myself are actually quite new; but still, it was not too hard), but if you want to make it optional, you not only have to change a def-file, but have to change the code, implement it into and update the menu, etc. If you would work on it yourself and present the whole thing ready to go, your suggestions would get a completely different reaction, but right now it is just an "I would like this in TDM, please do it for me". So even if your suggestions are good (and don't get me wrong, I like a couple of your ideas), the manpower to work on them is limited. That is the main reason, that suggestions have to be priorised and not every suggestion gets worked on.

[VanishedOne]

 

If you would work on it yourself and present the whole thing ready to go, your suggestions would get a completely different reaction

Although that reaction might merely be an addition to http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Fan_Created_Modifications

[Springheel]

I had to post these over and over too before one of you bothered to implement them

With that attitude I can't imagine why the developers weren't rushing to please you sooner.

 

Most people seem to be capable of offering suggestions and arguing for their point of view, even strongly, without consistently offending everyone who works on this project, or persistently whining when they don't get their way. You should take notes.

[wesp5]

 

So even if your suggestions are good (and don't get me wrong, I like a couple of your ideas), the manpower to work on them is limited. That is the main reason, that suggestions have to be priorised and not every suggestion gets worked on.

Maybe, and maybe in case to make it optional this might actually be true although I don't know how hard it would be. But as a normal feature the extinguishable oil lamps were really easy to implement and it was never argued that manpower was the reason why it wasn't made. It was argued that it would mess up a lot of the missions which just isn't true and the same kind of argument was just made regarding changes to the blinded AI behaviour! This was the main reason why I brought it up again: Every time a new cool feature is suggested here, the killing argument is never "we don't have the time to do it", but "it would mess up everything"! Which is really hard to counter unless the change is actually made and tested...

[wesp5]

With that attitude I can't imagine why the developers weren't rushing to please you sooner.

I have the impression that if a suggestion is not immediately implemented by a developer, it gets forgotten very fast and I can understand that. But what I don't understand is the quick "we won't do this because it's tradition" approach to many new ideas. Oh, and I called you stubborn and you compared me to a two year old child in return. Now who is offending here?

[Destined]

The thing is: These points are connected: if you want to know, if something will mess up older missions, you have to test the changes in at least a couple of older missions and that takes time. I think one of the hottest discussed points was (and I am sorry to bring it up again): Does it matter, if missions get easier or changed? And that is maybe a point, where everyone has their own opinion, but the developers' opinion (as far as I have read out of the froum so far) is: We want the missions to be as the authors intended. That includes difficulty and game mechanics. A drastic example (that you might see exaggerated compared to the oil lamps, but that is the intent of a drastic example ): Let's say someone suggests to make all glass in TDM breakable by arrows and blackjacks (which would be more realistic). The problem is: Your older mission, that you spent hours in creating, has a glass window, to show the player his goal and then the mission leads him through a maze of interesting stuff. With the change, the player can just break the glass in the beginning and the mission is completely obsolete. To prevent frustration from such or a similar scenario, new releases and mods are supposed to not change missions in any way, because authors spent a lot of time making their missions and have their intended difficulty. And to respect the authors' work and effort, the developers don't want to change things, that could break missions. That is why it is so difficult to decide which changes improve gameplay in general (like more intelligent AI behaviour) and which will actually change (and maybe ruin) missions.

[Nightcrawler]

 

I sometimes get the impression, that you don't realise how much work needs to be done in order to implement a couple of the features you suggested. The extinguishable lamps are not that difficult to make (it still took me some time to figure it out for you, because I myself are actually quite new; but still, it was not too hard), but if you want to make it optional, you not only have to change a def-file, but have to change the code, implement it into and update the menu, etc. If you would work on it yourself and present the whole thing ready to go, your suggestions would get a completely different reaction, but right now it is just an "I would like this in TDM, please do it for me". So even if your suggestions are good (and don't get me wrong, I like a couple of your ideas), the manpower to work on them is limited. That is the main reason, that suggestions have to be priorised and not every suggestion gets worked on.

 

I wonder how much it would take to implement my suggestion. I mean I might have tried it out, if I had an Idea what must be changed. But as a newbie I have no Idea where to start... So Ideas are welcome.

Just to be clear once again: I want to act blinded AIs the same no matter if the have been alerted before you blinded them or not.

[nbohr1more]

Maybe, and maybe in case to make it optional this might actually be true although I don't know how hard it would be. But as a normal feature the extinguishable oil lamps were really easy to implement and it was never argued that manpower was the reason why it wasn't made. It was argued that it would mess up a lot of the missions which just isn't true and the same kind of argument was just made regarding changes to the blinded AI behaviour! This was the main reason why I brought it up again: Every time a new cool feature is suggested here, the killing argument is never "we don't have the time to do it", but "it would mess up everything"! Which is really hard to counter unless the change is actually made and tested...

 

 

changed and tested

 

This is the crux of it. There are now over 100 missions. Any change that is made must be tested on them all and "not piss-off mappers by making the existing maps too easy\difficult etc".

A small change needs to be "universally liked" and offer a "substantial improvement" or an "obvious bugfix" to be worth this effort.

 

Yes, some of that is subjective and the developers have "developer privilege" to make these calls but there is an option:

 

BUILD YOUR OWN TECH DEMO

 

If players like your change, they will add more votes in favor of it as a project feature.

 

( Behind Closed Doors has at least a few of these. Many of it's custom features were never "voted on as core project features" and are instead out there as tech demos

that show how these features appeal to players. )

 

And if that still doesn't work?

 

Make a fork project "The Dark Mod: Snuffed Edition" (etc). Then, if it's substantially better, players will flock to it.

 

This is a free Open Source project. If you don't like it's overall direction, change the code or hire someone to do so if you aren't a coder.

 

Nagging developers via snippy forum comments is not an optimal way to achieve end-results.

 

On topic:

 

For the record: I think the ability to knock-out alerted (non-elite) AI when blinded is a good design decision. The risk of exploit is offset by the

skill required to KO the AI within the time limit. It's a matter of tuning that timing and that is the real sticking point of it. AluminumHaste will say that

he only needs 1.1 seconds to KO 5 AI while raymeld will plea for 2 minutes. The team would need to extensively test that on a bunch of players

to find a sweet-spot. So that's what this type of suggestion is up against. Not necessarily out of the question but in the realm of "is it worth upsetting the

apple cart?". I guess a difficulty toggle would reduce the fracas. I'm not particularly evangelized about it either way so I'll butt-out of the debate.

[Nightcrawler]

The thing is: These points are connected: if you want to know, if something will mess up older missions, you have to test the changes in at least a couple of older missions and that takes time. I think one of the hottest discussed points was (and I am sorry to bring it up again): Does it matter, if missions get easier or changed? And that is maybe a point, where everyone has their own opinion, but the developers' opinion (as far as I have read out of the froum so far) is: We want the missions to be as the authors intended. That includes difficulty and game mechanics. A drastic example (that you might see exaggerated compared to the oil lamps, but that is the intent of a drastic example ):

[....]

 

To prevent frustration from such or a similar scenario, new releases and mods are supposed to not change missions in any way, because authors spent a lot of time making their missions and have their intended difficulty. And to respect the authors' work and effort, the developers don't want to change things, that could break missions. That is why it is so difficult to decide which changes improve gameplay in general (like more intelligent AI behaviour) and which will actually change (and maybe ruin) missions.

 

The problem I can see in modifying stuff is not that it would make things just easier for the player - that's not a problem - but that in some circumstances the player could achieve s.th. completely new; something the level author didn't want the player to do...

 

To go back to my suggestion: You might see that it would make things easier for the player but couldn't mess up a mission - simply because it doesn't really add a new feature: The player already can blind the AI and knock them out - right now he just has to approach more carefully, because he must not get spotted before...