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Soooooooo........whens Dark Mod VR happening?


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#1 Noisycricket

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 05:46 PM

:smile:

 

Hey guys, just wondering if any of you are thinking about TDM in VR. This past week a bunch of new developments have happened for a few games that had their source code available and people are getting pretty excited about the few other AAA games with source code available and people have mentioned TDM on reddit many times after the Penumbra: Overture release. For anyone that doesn't know, heres some of whats been accomplished so far, mainly on the HTC Vive thus far, but should work for the Rift eventually too when the Rift gets their hand sensor tech within a week i believe.

 

You can sort of see the possibilities based on some of these videos, which i haven't even really thought about yet to be honest, just here to bring this all to your attention for those that haven't heard of it. But check out the arrow shooting in the minecraft video.

 

Doom 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlinZZokmUc&t=561s

 

Penumbra: Overture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT3Y5dZ-nLg

 

Minecraft: (hilarious, def watch this)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stR1t-uyPbk&t=2s&list=PL4Deva5xFh5hjcnRt_K0W_Q5vIQMmAdfv&index=1

 

When you want to shoot some zombies (Onward)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS3Vi4Cipgk&t=18s

 

 

Still editing, just don't want to lose this info


Edited by Noisycricket, 27 November 2016 - 05:51 PM.

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#2 Anderson

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 05:50 PM

I think the most comprehensive and in depth answer is from Ross Scott on the subject: 

 

Thus... either do it properly, or not do it at all.


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#3 Noisycricket

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 06:55 PM

Wow, sorry to take so long to reply, but i had to watch that video, then finish my extended standing ovation, then dry the tears from my eyes, then subscribe to his channel. (searches for smilie to cover that,nope.)

 

So yeah, I just watched that video, im amazed, not because it contain any new information really, but its what i've been echoing basically since i switched to 3D gaming since 2010 and have watched the VR push. I have 2,500 amazing, wonderful hours of 3D gaming on my belt according to Steam.

 

Noticed how he wasn't that impressed with 3D on a monitor, but said maybe it would be better on an HMD? This is basically what i've been telling people for a long time. That 3D on a display that offers cover a lot of your FOV is the key to good 3D and i believe it is because the 2D size of things, determined by how much of your FOV they cover, is also a human depth perception cue, so that when you are gaming on a screen, the 2D imagery matches up with the information the 3D information is telling your brain, making all the more real. What do i game on that leaves me an unflinching proponent of 3D?

 

A 46" Samsung 2nd generation 3DTV, place at about 2.5ft from me RIGHT ON MY DESK. It offers a horizontal FOV of about the RIft when i am sitting upright and i must turn my head a bit to look around the world. At first i was limited to 720p because of HDMI bandwidth limitation and the scaling of 720p over 1080p pixels further blurred the picture, yet i didn't look back from gaming on my 2560x1600, perfectly good Dell monitor, and thats despite the crosstalk and the dimming of the picture that my 1st gen Sony 46" 3DTV had. The 2nd generation Samsung offers "checkerboard" mode thankfully, that is unscaled and looks shockingly near 1080p, while also having far less crosstalk and input lag. Can't recommend it enough guys, and the Nvidia 3D Vision community on the Nvidia forums is great too, with many pro programmers and other helpers donating their time to fixing 3D problems games.

 

So i think the key to "good 3D" as he put it (I have started saying "full IPD 3D"  to describe "good 3D" ) is literally a big screen, or more accurately, a high FOV 3D display, like an HMD has.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to VR

 

Yeah motion sickness, i have only tried a demo so i don't know what to expect for myself, but i have been following the Playstation PSVR reddit this past month since release and from that and from what else i know so far, some people get sick, some don't at all, some develop "VR legs" over time, no idea if everyone can. Some people claim the rate of motion sickness is over half, some people say its only about 15%, some people say they only get sick in games known for being easy to handle while being able to handle the tougher games. These games they are playing on youtube i linked to with "smooth movement" are at a high framerate and that seems to be a big help for some people. Crossing fingers here, but something tells me its going to work out.

 

Concerning his other issues with with the display. If i can get used to my 2010 Sony "extra crosstalk edition" 3DTV with a massive amount of input lag and dimmed picture and screen door effect, surely the screen door effect in this can be overlooked? I don't know, i've not tried the Vive or Rift yet.

 

What i will say is that people from the 3D Vision forums were not that impressed, but they were directly comparing their 3D Vision setups, many of which have multi-thousand dollar projector setups. Compared that with the people trying the PSVR without having that benchmark in their minds and that probably explains the 1000s of 'HOLY SHIT, I NEVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE LIKE THIS! ITS AMAZING" comments on the PSVR reddit. So a lot of it is perception.

 

All that said, i do think VR is here to stay. But these unfortunately are "you have to see it to believe it" technologies which also require somewhat of a calibration to see correctly. Its going to be an uphill battle i think.

--------------------------

If you ever are curious about 3D in general an easy way to see what its capable of it to simply download this video of Mass Effect 1 scenery onto a usb thumb drive  and take it to a TV store that sells 3D tvs and has one that is capable of going into side-by-side 3D mode during usb video playback. The video is made for my IPD of 63.25cm (almost average) on a 46" TV, also should look fine on 55".

 


Edited by Noisycricket, 27 November 2016 - 07:00 PM.

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#4 nbohr1more

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 07:13 PM

Have you tried:

http://forums.thedar...dark-mod-vorpx/

?
Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

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#5 freyk

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 12:18 AM

In my experience, If you want to have something in tdm, you must do it yourself.
And someone did that in that topic.

Please keep the forum clean and post stuff in there.
Thanks.

#6 Noisycricket

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 03:00 AM

In my experience, If you want to have something in tdm, you must do it yourself.
And someone did that in that topic.

Please keep the forum clean and post stuff in there.
Thanks.

Well, im going to have some trouble with that as i don't program. But i am willing to bet that more than one of the professional programmers who worked on TDM will eventually be interested enough in this idea to do it. I provided those links because i don't think they may yet realize the possibilities for the fun to be had, as i didn't until i saw some of those videos. I wasn't a fan of the motion tracking stuff until pretty recently.

 

As i understand it, VorpX is 3D plus head tracking.

 

What i was talking about was full hand-tracking support, room scale or close too, holding your blackjack in your "hand" and a torch in the other, or a sword. Sword fighting. Throwing. Aiming your bow with one hand, pulling back with the other. Maybe looking down and literally picking a flashbomb from out of out a holster, and physically throwing it. Things like that.

 

Btw, here (at 7:48) is an example of using the bow with hand tracking, i meant to show this one before.

https://youtu.be/HSb...vIQMmAdfv&t=467

 

It will be a great way to get some exercise too. Ever since learning how important exercise is, from fending off Alzhiemers to keeping you happy, i have wanted VR in part just to get some exercise. Highly recommend the following Ted talks.

 


Edited by Noisycricket, 29 November 2016 - 03:13 AM.


#7 Destined

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 05:05 AM


What i was talking about was full hand-tracking support, room scale or close too, holding your blackjack in your "hand" and a torch in the other, or a sword. Sword fighting. Throwing. Aiming your bow with one hand, pulling back with the other. Maybe looking down and literally picking a flashbomb from out of out a holster, and physically throwing it. Things like that.

These things would really be very nice, but they do not only need a completely new set of code, but also a new model for the player (including the adjustment where the camera should sit) and animations for all the movements you can do. It is a HUGE amount of work needed to realize that. Additionally, I have no idea if the whole motion tracking code is even possible to implement into TDM.



#8 Noisycricket

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 05:31 PM

Not sure you'd need animations. For what? YOU'D be the realtime animator of yourself. If you're talking about animating the arms so they look right no matter what the hands are doing, i'm not sure about that, only that many other games have done it and luckily you don't see yourself in the game much so don't have to suffer watching yourself walking along like they do in Onward, for example. I wouldn't get your hopes up about having perfect bodily movements.

 

New player model: why?

 

Im running under the assumption that TDM is open source now, please correct me if im wrong. Not sure if that matters or to what degree it is an issue because the modder of the VR mod for Penumbra said he could probably "reverse engineer" games with the same level of functionality as his Penumbra mod without the source code, or something like that. But some of the TDM programmers were experienced professionals if im not mistaken. The guy who did the Penumbra mod was a college student. Not sure if that means anything, but im really just thinking out loud here.

 

Yes, it it possible to implement the motion tracking code, why wouldn't it be?

 

Here is the thread for reference if anyone would like more info.

https://www.reddit.c...d_movement_the/

 

Downsider is the creator.



#9 jaredmitchell

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 08:21 PM

Not sure you'd need animations. For what? YOU'D be the realtime animator of yourself. If you're talking about animating the arms so they look right no matter what the hands are doing, i'm not sure about that, only that many other games have done it and luckily you don't see yourself in the game much so don't have to suffer watching yourself walking along like they do in Onward, for example. I wouldn't get your hopes up about having perfect bodily movements.

 

New player model: why?

 

I'm guessing he's mostly considering foot and leg models. Some non-VR games have been utilizing these for the sake of immersion already (Outlast, Alien: Isolation and Thief: Deadly Shadows being three examples, if I remember correctly). It's not strictly necessary, but it's helpful, especially since TDM is supposed to be a simulation of being a thief. Until we get omni-directional treadmills and foot-mounted trackers, foot models are going to have to be animated regularly.

 

Im running under the assumption that TDM is open source now, please correct me if im wrong. Not sure if that matters or to what degree it is an issue because the modder of the VR mod for Penumbra said he could probably "reverse engineer" games with the same level of functionality as his Penumbra mod without the source code, or something like that.

 

Yes, TDM is open-source. Penumbra and its engine, HPL1, are as well, and have been since 2010.



#10 Destined

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 12:24 AM

Don't get me wrong, I would also very much like to see TDM in VR (at least as soon as I can afford the setup). It is one of the most immersive games I know and is basically predestined for VR. I am just not completely sure if it is technically possible.

 

Regarding the player model I was especially referring to your "Maybe looking down and literally picking a flashbomb from out of out a holster, and physically throwing it." statement. Currently the player model is only the arms that are in turn only visible when you draw a weapon. Whatever else you want to see from the player has to be modeled and animated. You are right that the arm animations will not be needed as the player himself will do the movement, which should be no too big problem with inverse kinematics, but at least the player model needs to be made and rigged that the game knows which part is represented by the VR controllers.

 

It is correct, that TDM is open source and one point in being so is that people are welcome and encouraged to use it and do with it as they please. Still, the source code is not the latest one. I am no programmer myself, so I have no idea what requirements VR and motion tracking have and how older codes work with it. To use a specifically exaggerated case: I don't think you will be able to play the old DOS Wolfenstein 3D in VR, because it is too old. I have no idea how old the engine can/may be.

 

 

But some of the TDM programmers were experienced professionals if im not mistaken. The guy who did the Penumbra mod was a college student.

Yes, there are a couple of people here, who are quite experienced, but in this case not experience but rather time is the limiting factor. As far as I know the more experienced people here have a job and a family (not to mention other hobbies as well). So, this is in no proportion to the time you have as a college student (who might even have worked on it as a project during his studies).


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#11 nbohr1more

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 12:40 AM

If all goes well, TDM 2.05 will be more VR friendly...

As for full VR support? That will be after other priorities are attended to.
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#12 Noisycricket

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 05:13 PM

@Destined: It is definitely possible, especially with the source code. No need to worry about that. No "key frame" animations would be needed at all, all the limbs would be controlled by simple code. Maybe animations for the feet, but i think it would be better with just code for now.  When the head goes down, the pelvis will too, and will need to start moving backwards to a degree. That would be coded. The legs would follow the pelvis. The feet are perhaps the only thing that *might* received key frame animation, but i doubt it, i think it would be more dynamic to add translation, acceleration through code. Keyframe could work too, but i think you are going to have a lot more fast jumping between between animations in that mode.

 

I think it would be good to have an option for crouching via buttons. I know my knees probably couldn't handle all the necessary crouching i would do, not for hours on end. The reason key frame animations are not going to work very well *i think* is that that computer only has your head movement for reference to what your body is doing, it doesn't know whether you've gone down to one knee or are crouched with two feet on the ground, for example. Maybe with the help of button presses it would work and look better, but you would have to signal TDM each time you crouched. The good thing is that it just needs to be good enough to look decent when you are actually in view of your body.

 

Elbows are a tough one, because only the hands are tracked and the computer can't know what the elbows are doing. If you want arms, you may have to get used to see them clipping stuff sometimes. Not a big deal in my opinion, or at least, better than no arms. The IK arm chain could be contextually located depending on the item selected though.

 

Theres no need to speculate, the programmers here probably know exactly how this would be done just by looking at the existing VR videos. I wouldn't expect this soon though. VR is expensive right now and smooth, natural movement requires "VR legs", something the willing programmers might not simply have enough time to obtain, or willingness, should be they find they are highly susceptible to nausea. I DO think this is something some of the older TDM programmers might come back to help with. TDM was blessed with many talented programmers.



#13 Taquito

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Posted 03 December 2016 - 12:36 PM

I think this is a great opportunity for TDM to get some extra attention since the VR Fans seem desperate for good tittles. Perhaps the ones who did the Penumbra or the Doom mod could work in TDM as well? the biggest challenge could be the bow and arrow mechanics? Cause the sword and the mace models are already in the system.



#14 freyk

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 11:06 AM

For the developers:
Al the users in the tech-video's above are using RBBDOOM

if you dont have an vr-helmet and you want just a experiment a bit.
How about combining your (android)phone (with wifi), pc-screen streaming-software and headtracking software.
Like Kainy (server and client) and opentrack.
Spoiler

Edited by freyk, 04 December 2016 - 03:30 PM.


#15 MirceaKitsune

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 04:40 PM

Definitely waiting to know about this as well! Also, if and when it happens, will it be compatible with OSVR? Since once I one day have the money for a VR headset, that's most likely what I'll want to get, over the proprietary Oculus / Vive / etc.



#16 stumpy

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 04:00 PM

Oculus Rift are on shakey footings after them and facebook lost the suit made by zenimax. http://www.shacknews...-of-oculus-rift



#17 nbohr1more

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 04:13 PM

I wonder if this is blowback from Carmack speaking out about this?

 

He was basically spelling out the technical shortcomings of Zenimax's case against Oculus in a way that clearly

illuminates that Zenimax is issuing a false claim about IP theft.

 

Makes you wonder if Oculus is pissed at him for not leaving well enough alone?


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#18 HMart

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 09:53 PM

I wonder if this is blowback from Carmack speaking out about this?

 

He was basically spelling out the technical shortcomings of Zenimax's case against Oculus in a way that clearly

illuminates that Zenimax is issuing a false claim about IP theft.

 

Makes you wonder if Oculus is pissed at him for not leaving well enough alone?

 

Why would oculus be pissed at him? He has been talking against zenimax not oculus, and imo even tho i don't like some of the stuff Palmer Lucky said and did in the past, i still think Zenimax is the one on the wrong here not oculus.






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