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For anyone building a mission targeted for 2.05


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#1 grayman

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 08:41 AM

If you've been working on a mission for 2.05, and you've been using SVN for your assets, please switch to the beta package of 2.05. Some assets that appear in SVN won't be included in 2.05.

 

For example, I was using this material for a curtain:

 

textures/darkmod/fabric/ship_sails

 

When I switched to 2.05, it disappeared. The material is part of the airship, which is being excluded from 2.05 because it isn't finished.

 

(No, I'm not going to provide a list of what's not included in 2.05. Just make the switch and find out what's missing. ^_^ )


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#2 pariah

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 09:44 AM

sighs



#3 pariah

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 10:24 AM

hello, u bring back damage for movers? play "tiny test mission" and stand under the lifts where creeps sceptre is and pull the lever. it does not crush you. U just get stuck and cannot play the game any more. if u crouch then u r tottally stuck and must noclip or restart mission or relaod or something.

Play 1st mission of thief and stand under dumb waiter in kitchen where u pickpocket guard and get loot from lited room and u die. I argue why is it made so that this happens not any more in TDM?



#4 pariah

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 10:53 AM

"The AI is not the only enemy in a good game - the environment and even the player's choices and consequence are also good enemies for a player to face.

 

The idea was to NOT have people quicksave/quickload when they "messed up" because it wouldn't matter and had no bearing on the player's experience of such a mission - it's a series of logic-gates and some mechanical trickery in order to present the illusion that something has changed depending on what has happened - unless the same actions are performed each play through, it will not be the same mission twice (it also means the entity limit can be reached and breached, so... also gotta fix that seeded loot stuff, since never 100%. Although that might be cool, but some people like 100%...).

 

The environment being hostile, rather/as well as AI is an important part - especially if a player is skilled enough at stealth in order to access such parts of the mission.

 

This is why it is important to define sections with (or without) such hostile AI through a subtle transition in play area (eg, such as our "symmetry rooms" or the water-void tunnels that are designed to make a player feel panicked for air, and prompt a save before entering a dangerous area [since TDM contains no autosave, prompt nor checkpoint], or a simple change of track, lighting, design system/decor etc... That kinda shit - a definitive boundary that a player can be aware of either overtly, as with almost drowning to get there, or covertly, such as the mood changing through use of music, light and design).

 

The parts of the levels in which the main enemy is the environment now require a total rebuild, due to the new version of TDM.

There's a post you can easily find on the forums regarding the subject, that has the necessary crap you gotta do in order to get the environment hostile once more.

 

Forget the ragdolls. Delete them. Utterly pointless.

Or do it last thing, since they must be manually placed.

I think remove them entirely... Waste of entity space.

 

I still think that this would be worth the effort to go back and rebuild all the stuff, but... Even though the removal of damage from movers is a massive pain the arse - it also solves the problem of rotating rooms causing damage if the player (or AI) somehow manages to get into one, or there is some need for an AI to be placed in a decision&consequence gate/symmetry room...

 

(Just gotta remember to glue that stuff down, since it flies everywhere when the hidden objectives are triggered!)

 

It pisses me off that the haunts can no longer be destroyed without re-doing the whole section. In fact - the change totally negates the whole fucking mission, thinking about it...

 

Really don't think, mate, that simply, "putting in few extra guards" is going to cut it, when the whole fucking idea was to have some high/low guard activity depending upon player action and mission alarm level...

The idea was that it would be possible to play as a psychopathic murder or a ghost or anywhere in between and have the mission adapt to the playstyle - not simply facsimilie the level and put in a different amount of guards,or an extra lamp,or some higher loot objective...

 

And no, I don't think that adding keys to sections is much fun - because it's not Silent Hill.

Higher challenges are accessible only to the players who possess the skill to find them. Not simply by finding a key.

 

Movers no damage has screwed this - you can't even die in the stock missions! wtf, man.... Have you tried stepping under a lift recently? Try walking down the collapsing tunnel - it just stops moving. You don't die.

 

It sucks."



#5 NeonsStyle

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:23 PM

To clarify, what is SVN? Oh and don't tell me since I don't know it I don't need to know lol :P


Edited by NeonsStyle, 01 February 2017 - 12:24 PM.

I have a small YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:
 
https://www.youtube.com/c/NeonsStyleHD

 

 

 


#6 nbohr1more

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:50 PM

It's a collaborative software revision tracker:

 

https://en.wikipedia...ache_Subversion

 

We use it internally to share changes to upcoming TDM versions. Mappers can request access to SVN resources so their missions can include assets (etc)

from future releases so they will be ready to release shortly after the new TDM release is out. We used to call this the "Beta Mapper" process but now

there's no real formal process or designation. We just try to determine if the person requesting SVN is trustworthy and give them access based on that assessment.


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#7 grayman

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 01:45 PM

play "tiny test mission"

 

Where is it?



#8 Springheel

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 03:51 PM

I think he's referring to Thief's Den.


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#9 grayman

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 05:37 PM

Also, where's the "collapsing tunnel"?



#10 grayman

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 05:38 PM

I think he's referring to Thief's Den.

 

I need confirmation of this before I start chasing the problem.



#11 nbohr1more

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 06:13 PM

I don't recall anything like that in Thief's Den. teh_seccade probably has a small test map but it seems that he became frustrated and left.

While it is sad to see a mission author give-up, the core team isn't mandated to wait on mappers every utterance in these forums and unclear

complaints are hard to reply to. If s\he ever comes back and wants to give examples to work with, perhaps we'll have a promising set of improvements

or a new mission.


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#12 Springheel

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:09 PM

I don't recall anything like that in Thief's Den.

 

 

I'm pretty sure "play "tiny test mission" and stand under the lifts where creeps sceptre is and pull the lever. it does not crush you." refers to the movable platform that takes the player to the basement where Creep's scepter is.  I can't confirm that you used to take damage by standing under it but it sounds plausible.



#13 nbohr1more

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:20 PM

Ok. That makes sense now. Tiny "lifts" threw me off for some reason.
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#14 grayman

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 08:57 PM

What lever? I'm not familiar with the mission, and don't see any lever near the scepter.

 

Perhaps @pariah can provide both a 2.04 and 2.05 savegame.



#15 Obsttorte

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 03:00 AM

Just so I get it, has there been changes made to the movers? I had a trap in one of my missions (not sure whether the setup there damaged the player via a moveable, though). Would have to take a look before 2.05 is out if this has changed.


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#16 Destined

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 03:02 AM

teh_seccade probably has a small test map but it seems that he became frustrated and left.

Apparently, he had a bigger mission in mind and was frustrated, because movers stopped doing damage, which rendered a large area of his WIP useless. Apart from that he complained a lot about not being appreciated and ignored (although I cannot say why, as I have had quite the contrary experience on this forum).



#17 grayman

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 09:21 AM

Just so I get it, has there been changes made to the movers? I had a trap in one of my missions (not sure whether the setup there damaged the player via a moveable, though). Would have to take a look before 2.05 is out if this has changed.

 

Could you please check with 2.04 and 2.05?

 

I made this change in 2.05, so damage should occur. There's a new spawnarg for movers, "allow_reversal" which defaults to "1", which allows the mover to reverse direction when encountering blockage (after doing some damage to the blocker).

 

If movers didn't cause damage in 2.04 and earlier, but they used to a long time ago, I don't recall why the change from 'damaging' to 'non-damaging' was made. Perhaps it was a side-effect of some other change.



#18 Obsttorte

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 04:02 PM

I will. Thanks for the pointing.


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#19 pariah

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 06:19 PM

hello yes the mission is thiefs den and the issue is that the lift does not kill u if u r dumb enough to get put under it and crush yourself. Additional the collapsing tunel was part of a mission where walls closed in like in starwars trash area and escape was to be with either rope if u had or run fast and not turn back.

Grayman if you stand under the lift and push the button then u will see the issue. If u crouch then u r really stuck. This proved to be a large problem for mario sectin where u would have to climb falling blocks that are brushes on spline. with new version they will be blocked by sword or if u stand under any and then it lose axxx, immediate moment tensions.



#20 teh_saccade

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 08:00 PM

pariah: https://modwiki.xnet...r_hurt_(entity)

 

spawnarg: def_damage [value] & on.

bind it.


Edited by Bikerdude, 04 February 2017 - 04:13 AM.
For some people English isnt thier native language.


#21 grayman

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 10:35 PM

hello yes the mission is thiefs den and the issue is that the lift does not kill u if u r dumb enough to get put under it and crush yourself. 

 

In 2.04, the lift comes down and stops, pinning you and not doing any damage.

 

In 2.05, the lift comes down and hurts you, then reverses itself and goes back up.


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#22 teh_saccade

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:18 AM

 

In 2.04, the lift comes down and stops, pinning you and not doing any damage.

 

In 2.05, the lift comes down and hurts you, then reverses itself and goes back up.

 

Much better:)





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