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Steam Greenlight: TDM is ranked #1 atm.


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#526 chakkman

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 01:46 PM

Yeah, but just see how many pages has the thread with 2.06 issues. Now this is only for users who registered and posted their replies here. Now imagine having to manage the same problem on Steam. Everyone who plays PC games, has login on Steam, and can post on any game-related forums. You'd need several people to manage technical issues and answer to people on Steam, and such thread would have tens of pages.

 

I think the main point where this mod can benefit from having more people play it is that there will be more people creating missions for it. Don't expect wonders though, even if the mod would be released on Steam today, there wouldn't be thousands of new users flooding the forums. Still, there's a chance the one or the other would do a mission. And, for the support thing: Isn't it enough to read the 2.06 issues thread to find your way around the obvious issues like the AA/soft shadow thing? No need for everyone to ask the same question over and over again. Maybe a sticky would also help.



#527 Abusimplea

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 06:07 PM

Random thoughts of a player:

 

Beeing on steam changes nothing regarding copyright violations. If can be sued when on Steam, you also can be sued when not on Steam.

 

That support threads get longer when TDM is on steam is caused by the increased visibility. Well, keeping TDM hidden, so only the real sneaks could ever discover it, worked pretty well the last years. Not sure, where the new contributers should come from if the TDM team ever gets old though.

I don't think, TDM would get overrun by the masses who can't like it. They will look at the first screenshot and instantly know, that this is not the casual experience they are searching for.

 

GoG feels better than Steam, but TDM could be present on both plattforms.

 



#528 demagogue

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 12:33 AM

For the record, we already enforce a policy against IP violations in FMs and say we'll take them off our list if any are identified.

 

And the team is isn't against going on to Steam. In principle it's a good thing. Everyone is happy for the game to get more exposure and build the community, and there's no desire to keep it "hidden". That's not really the thing preventing it. It just takes work and there's not a champion that's pushing it that also can handle all the details.

 

There are also a few hurdles that put the whole thing into question. We keep getting warned about GPL (see below). It's possible and has been done, but apparently usually when the author is in a position to change the license just for Steam (which we aren't since we didn't author the GPL parts; id did), and they're wary. I believe you have to convince them Steamworks is kept out of any contact with the GPL licensed part, etc, which is something I don't know about and the coding people will have to answer, considering our sourcecode is all under GPL, and I don't know anything about work it takes to mediate it with separate code.

 

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#529 freyk

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 01:04 AM

I was told that, if you branch out, you make a copy of the object (and version) and the license.
If the original author changes that license later, you own copy of the license doesnt change.

Edited by freyk, 08 June 2018 - 01:06 AM.


#530 stgatilov

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 01:05 AM

There are also a few hurdles that put the whole thing into question. We keep getting warned about GPL (see below). It's possible and has been done, but apparently usually when the author is in a position to change the license just for Steam (which we aren't since we didn't author the GPL parts; id did), and they're wary. I believe you have to convince them Steamworks is kept out of any contact with the GPL licensed part, etc, which is something I don't know about and the coding people will have to answer, considering our sourcecode is all under GPL, and I don't know anything about work it takes to mediate it with separate code.

I think this problem is solved simply by not using steamworks. People say it is not required to publish game on steam.

It would mean no integration with steam, just a game page (like a website) and downloading functionality.



#531 Destined

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 01:34 AM

However, (if I remember correctly) steamworks was considerd, because it would be good to have as a server for FMs and it would supposedly make it easier to up- and download them. Still, it is true that, in order to simply increase visibility, we could do without it.



#532 Judith

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 01:47 AM

 

I think the main point where this mod can benefit from having more people play it is that there will be more people creating missions for it. Don't expect wonders though, even if the mod would be released on Steam today, there wouldn't be thousands of new users flooding the forums. Still, there's a chance the one or the other would do a mission. And, for the support thing: Isn't it enough to read the 2.06 issues thread to find your way around the obvious issues like the AA/soft shadow thing? No need for everyone to ask the same question over and over again. Maybe a sticky would also help.

 

You know how people are. Nobody will go through a 5+ page topic, people will ask the same question all over again, because they want their answer this instant (even if going to the first post and checking FAQ is faster than waiting for someone to reply).


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#533 freyk

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 02:14 AM

Which Open Source Licenses are problematic for shipping on Steam?
Generally, any license that has a so-called “copyleft” element will be problematic when combining code with the Steamworks SDK. The best-known example is GPL.

And how about create a part that only communicates with the steamworks-api, under that under a gpl license?
 

... And the team is isn't against going on to Steam. In principle it's a good thing. Everyone is happy for the game to get more exposure and build the community, and there's no desire to keep it "hidden". That's not really the thing preventing it. It just takes work and there's not a champion that's pushing it that also can handle all the details.

I hope the team listens to their community, to decide that.
Please keep the communication open as possible.

Edited by freyk, 08 June 2018 - 02:22 AM.


#534 wesp5

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 02:26 AM

GoG feels better than Steam, but TDM could be present on both plattforms.

Has anyone ever talked with GOG about putting TDM on it? Do they even offer free standalone former mods? And I confirm that people will ask the same questions over and over again, even with stickied topics and warnings during installation. Luckily for my Bloodlines patch I have a guy handling this just for fun most of the times ;).


Edited by wesp5, 08 June 2018 - 02:28 AM.


#535 demagogue

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 03:41 AM

Yes, as I recall we've contacted GOG multiple times and don't get a response, but I wasn't the person doing it so I don't recall the details or have time to look up the relevant threads on it.

 

My naive understanding of what Steamworks does makes me think we don't need or even want it. We don't care about DRM, and it's not a big deal to lose things like screenshots, comments, popups, achievements, etc, which to be honest are kind of blingy and immersion-breaking and don't fit our ethos, so we wouldn't want them anyway. (I'm not 100% clear the difference between Steamworks integrated into the game vs. the independent Steam shell running concurrently with a game. But I recall that you can have the Steam shell running even for a non-Steam game.)


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#536 Anderson

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 04:15 AM

Really? I mean by the TDM team before they are released?

 

Yes. At least 1 person and possibly some non-dev beta testers.


Edited by Anderson, 08 June 2018 - 04:16 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#537 chakkman

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 06:00 AM

 

You know how people are. Nobody will go through a 5+ page topic, people will ask the same question all over again, because they want their answer this instant (even if going to the first post and checking FAQ is faster than waiting for someone to reply).

 

True. Again though, i doubt that TDM would be immediately overrun by people, when it is released on Steam. The way i heard of this mod is via the most popular German games magazine (i believe), and, i'd imagine that brought much more publicity.

 

Also, why feel obliged to immediately provide support? There's a (good) wiki, which could be pointed too, and there are enough people here who also could help with basic issues. Like, for example, the one with AA and the soft shadows.


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#538 Springheel

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 06:03 AM

Yes. At least 1 person and possibly some non-dev beta testers.

While someone on the team might volunteer to beta test any particular mission, there is no garrantee that will happen.

And the issue of being flooded with people is a red herring. That was never raised as a concern by the team while discussing going on Steam. The main problems are the tremendous amount of work it would take to demonstrate to Valve that our licenses are valid (how do you check all the assets contributed over twelve years by dozens of people lost to time), and the cultural issues of creating a legal "owner" of the mod.
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TDM Missions:   A Score to Settle   *   A Reputation to Uphold   *   A New Job   *    A Matter of Hours
 
Video Series:   Springheel's Modules   *   Speedbuild Challenge   *   New Mappers Workshop  *   Building Traps

#539 Anderson

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 08:40 AM

 the cultural issues of creating a legal "owner" of the mod.

 

Assigning someone who is willing to be active and responsive and who can act in the best interests of the community. If not, that's ok. TDM won't be on Steam. Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

 

While someone on the team might volunteer to beta test any particular mission, there is no garrantee that will happen.
 

 

Thankfully, thus far it didn't seem to be an issue. If anything there are more visitors since 2.05 I think.


 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#540 Jetrell

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 03:36 PM

I've been following this topic and I can't help but wonder, is expansion even necessary? Is building Rome the goal?

 

What is the current state of TDM? Is it still trending up or is on a decline? I mean, in terms of people joining this community, participation, building FMs etc...

 

How long will TDM stay relevant before its technology declines to the point where people start to move on to other things? How long will the current developers want to continue to maintain this project? Are there other members standing in the wings that are prepared to carry on the torch?

 

 



#541 Anderson

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 06:07 AM

 

How long will TDM stay relevant before its technology declines to the point where people start to move on to other things? How long will the current developers want to continue to maintain this project? Are there other members standing in the wings that are prepared to carry on the torch?

 

 

If Dwarf Fortress can go on for another 20 years, then it is all about what you will. After all, what matters is that TDM is digitally immortalized in the world wide web.

I was also impressed how tenacious and dedicated the team of 0 A.D. was over the years, even if they failed to crowdfund more resources and after some devs passing away. Alas, still in alpha.

So, everything keeps going as long as someone can keep paying the bills for the servers of the site, I hope.


Edited by Anderson, 11 June 2018 - 06:07 AM.

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 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#542 wesp5

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 06:12 AM

So, everything keeps going as long as someone can keep paying the bills for the servers of the site, I hope.

It helps if you are part of a bigger community like TDM is connected to the Thief games which are much older and still going strong AFAIK. Or like my other favorite "The Babylon Project" which has been kind of dead for a while, but now some people of the FSO community plan to create a re-release including all recent engine updates!


Edited by wesp5, 11 June 2018 - 06:13 AM.

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#543 Shadrach

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 08:35 AM

To bring my (totally unneeded) 2€ into this - I think maybe you guys are reading too much into the Steam terms. Looking at the massive pile of dung that gets released on Steam every single day (yes, anime novels I'm looking at you), surely TDM would pass muster easily. Sure you need some kind of organization to handle contact with Steam and to make necessary changes to the client for Steam integration and so on, but I assume there's already some people who run this site, do releases and post updates who would fit that role.

 

Granted, the Steam forums truly are a cesspit of humanity, and after a release you are sure to be swamped with all manner of badly reported errors, trolling, and general stupidity. This is probably the biggest problem. Best to be clear from the start that the forums on this site will be the primary support channel.

 

Another strategy to get more visibility would be to get more focus on the Moddb pages - it's a huge community there, much nicer than Steam, and TDM deserves more attention than it's currently getting.


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#544 unfairlight

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 07:49 AM

 

Granted, the Steam forums truly are a cesspit of humanity, and after a release you are sure to be swamped with all manner of badly reported errors, trolling, and general stupidity. This is probably the biggest problem. Best to be clear from the start that the forums on this site will be the primary support channel.

You can turn off those community features if you wish.

 

Another strategy to get more visibility would be to get more focus on the Moddb pages - it's a huge community there, much nicer than Steam, and TDM deserves more attention than it's currently getting.

It's a nice thought but it's really hard to just get more attention on Moddb.


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#545 Atomica

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 07:54 AM

.


Edited by Atomica, 01 August 2018 - 11:31 PM.


#546 chakkman

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 07:57 AM

Are we there yet? 

 

rbrp01522uus0c.jpg

 

Sorry just taking the p*** a bit. ;) Guess this is dead now anyway, now that Bikerdude isn't involved in it anymore? Not that i'd care much, whole Steam thing seems to have been a dead birth, and not really wanted from the being, and, time doesn't stand still. People want great graphics these days, first and foremost.


Edited by chakkman, 17 July 2018 - 07:59 AM.


#547 Atomica

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 08:01 AM

.


Edited by Atomica, 01 August 2018 - 11:31 PM.


#548 chakkman

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 08:07 AM

Don't get me wrong, i love this mod, and it's a shame so many people miss it because of reservations against stealth gaming, or the graphics. About the Steam Greenlight thing, well... i don't want to cause a controversy here. Let's just say it's all pretty half-hearted. And now, it is much too late for it anyway, IMO.



#549 wesp5

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 08:12 AM

I feel this game has so much depth that gets missed by the crowd because they need their shiny graphics more than engaging gameplay.

Maybe, but there is a retro movement going on in gaming too and lots of RPGs e.g. come out in the old isometric view. Still I recently read that with the new buy-your-shit-game-directly-onto-Steam approach about 180 new games get released per week, so TDM would have gone under there anyway...



#550 chakkman

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 08:20 AM

I don't know about that. They have some tag/interest based system, which will propose games based on your games preferences. So, if you own Thief 1, 2, 3, or the new Thief, you will likely get a TDM proposal. :)


Edited by chakkman, 17 July 2018 - 08:21 AM.

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