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Using Springheel's 2.05 Modules


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#26 Bikerdude

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 09:23 AM

Yes, the origin is not ideally placed on most of the sets,

If older versions of lightwave will support these models and the learning curve just to change the origins isnt to steep, I will hunt around for a cheap s/h copy.  And this is all assuming Springheel dosen't mind me or someone fiddling around with his models.

 

And I just remembered I have an old copy for the Amiga, v5.0 I think. @Springheel what version do you use and do you know if out .LWO models are open-enable in older version of LW3D..?



#27 grayman

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 09:31 AM

If older versions of lightwave will support these models and the learning curve just to change the origins isnt to steep, I will hunt around for a cheap s/h copy.  And this is all assuming Springheel dosen't mind me or someone fiddling around with his models.

 

You prolly missed my post above.

 

You can't change the origins of modules shipped with 2.05.



#28 Bikerdude

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 09:47 AM

You can't change the origins of modules shipped with 2.05.

Why, will changing the origins move the models on maps using them..? Have we tried moving the original on one to see what happens..?



#29 grayman

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 10:02 AM

Why, will changing the origins move the models on maps using them..? Have we tried moving the original on one to see what happens..?

 

  • Yes
  • Spring changed the origin on a door lockplate at my request early on in module development, and when the new model snapped into place at the origin DR had it at, it was far from where it needed to be. I needed to adjust all the lockplates based on their new origin.


#30 Melan

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 10:05 AM

TBH I am more bothered by that strip of wooden parquette in the middle of the tiles than I am about mismatched trims.  ;)


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#31 Judith

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 10:42 AM

I make no claims that the modules are perfect.  I'm not a professional modeller, nor is that a goal I'm pursuing.  I created these because I wanted to encourage new mappers to try mapping, and allow existing mappers to create impressive looking missions in far less time, with the hope that this will draw more players to the game.

 

Yes, the origin is not ideally placed on most of the sets, and there are certainly flaws, but I've used them to map with already, and the results are far more detailed than almost anything we've seen in TDM thus far, and faster than anything that could be done with brushes and patches.  Since no one is forced to use them, I'm convinced the result is a net positive.

 

This scene, for example, could be created in under an hour using the modules.  Without them I suspect it would take several days.  Are there places where the trim doesn't match up perfectly?  Absolutely.  Will players care?  Maybe, but I suspect not.

 

Hey, you don't have to sell me on the concept of modular meshes, I've been using those in several Unreal engines throughout many years :) That document I linked to, it's from 2002, and it's been around the web probably since UT 2004. This isn't arcane knowledge.

 

People who are or will be drawn to TDM and DR after Steam Greenlight success will come with different backgrounds, like Unreal or Unity. They will see your models and they will wonder whether you knew what you were doing. It would take like a second per model to fix those pivots, and yet they are in weird places right now. I think it's kind of obvious that there's a slight difference between meshes made for your own purposes only, and those released to the public. The former can have flaws unless you know how to use them and you're satisfied with the result. For the latter you need to come up with a system and be as consistent as possible so others can recognize the idea behind this.

 

Why, will changing the origins move the models on maps using them..? Have we tried moving the original on one to see what happens..?

 

Yup, that's what always happens with those. They will move in relation to the pivot point on the map.


Edited by Judith, 28 February 2017 - 11:00 AM.


#32 grayman

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 10:58 AM

... they will wonder whether you knew what you were doing.

 

A bit harsh, and prolly over the line.

 

Many more people will look at them and say "brilliant". As mappers, we deal with all kinds of details behind the scenes, and we curse at some and revel in others. But players won't be aware of any of this.


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#33 AluminumHaste

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 11:01 AM

Careful, this discussion has gone on long enough. The current crop can't be changed now, they're out.

 

You've made your point, let's move on.


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#34 Judith

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 11:13 AM

 

A bit harsh, and prolly over the line.

 

Many more people will look at them and say "brilliant". As mappers, we deal with all kinds of details behind the scenes, and we curse at some and revel in others. But players won't be aware of any of this.

 

I think you're a tad too sensitive, Gray (edit: sorry, somehow I thought it was Biker) :) Sure, players won't notice that, but we were talking about mappers. A good and fast system of pivot/origin points shaves off hours and days of mappers' work. But I agree with AH, there's no point beating a dead horse, what's done is done. There's always next time.


Edited by Judith, 28 February 2017 - 11:18 AM.

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#35 New Horizon

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 01:14 PM

Till next time! :)


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#36 TinyThief

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 02:25 PM

Springheel,

this is absolutely fantastic. I've just watched your 2nd video and I really appreciate the work and time you put into creating the modules.

 

The models look awesome. A sincere 'Thank You!' from this part-time mapper.


Edited by TinyThief, 28 February 2017 - 02:46 PM.

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#37 Bikerdude

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 02:37 PM

Spring changed the origin on a door lockplate at my request early on in module development, and when the new model snapped into place at the origin DR had it at, it was far from where it needed to be. I needed to adjust all the lockplates based on their new origin.

Spring Pm'd me and then he pointed out any maps with the new modules would all be borked, so we will just have to live with them as is.



#38 Obsttorte

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 03:29 PM

When I took a first look at the modules I also noticed that the placement of the origins is different from how I would have set it up. However, after working with those for a while you get used to that pretty fast. It is similar to all models: sometimes you have to live with what you have. And just because I think they would be better positioned at another point this does not neccessarely mean all other mappers do think so, too.

 

Of course it might be worthwhile thinking about such things a bit more when creating future modules, either created by Spring or someone else. But the current modules serve their purpose and I have a lot of fun working with them. And I'm pretty sure there are several philosophies on how a perfect modul set would look like. ;)

 

I agree that criticism can be a constructive part of an artists development, and in our forum we might tend to avoid criticism for the sake of being nice. But criticism is only constructive at the right dose. You should keep that in mind.


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#39 Sotha

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 03:55 PM

Nice videos, Springheel!

 

I added a link to it from my modules-video comments.


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#40 Springheel

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 04:30 PM

Springheel,

this is absolutely fantastic. I've just watched your 2nd video and I really appreciate the work and time you put into creating the modules.

 

The models look awesome. A sincere 'Thank You!' from this part-time mapper.

 

Thanks, much appreciated.


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#41 HMart

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 07:04 PM

 

@Springheel I can also confirm this, as I have spent as much time as Grayman working with these modules. So if and when you start work on the Builder modules, could I humbly request that you have a look at all the current modular models and set the pivot point as Judith has suggested..? I would do this myself but don't have or know how to use lightwave,

 

@Arcturus/Judith - 

  1. can Blender work with .LWO models and
  2. can it do so without mucking said models beyond us wanting to change the pivot points..?

 

 

Blender can open .lwo models but you have to turn on the plugin in the preferences is not on by default.

 

Afaik unfortunately it can't export to .lwo.

 

I personally work with Modo and it has native import and export support for .lwo, modo was made by ex-lightwave engineers, btw Modo was used by id software along side Maya, there's even a special plugin for modo made by one of id software level designers (Seneca) to make it very friendly with idtech 4/5/6.

 

But even if the models aren't "perfect" i can only give my kudos to Springheel for making this, your work will make the missions look better than ever.   


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#42 Aosys

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 07:36 PM

Just wanted to say that I too have been diving into the modules, and not only are they a ton of fun to use, they're also an amazing source of inspiration:

 

Spoiler

 

So thanks for making them!


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#43 Arcturus

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 02:05 AM

  1. can Blender work with .LWO models and
  2. can it do so without mucking said models beyond us wanting to change the pivot points..?

There are both import and export scripts for Blender.


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#44 Judith

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 05:54 AM

When I took a first look at the modules I also noticed that the placement of the origins is different from how I would have set it up. However, after working with those for a while you get used to that pretty fast. It is similar to all models: sometimes you have to live with what you have. And just because I think they would be better positioned at another point this does not neccessarely mean all other mappers do think so, too.

 

Of course it might be worthwhile thinking about such things a bit more when creating future modules, either created by Spring or someone else. But the current modules serve their purpose and I have a lot of fun working with them. And I'm pretty sure there are several philosophies on how a perfect modul set would look like. ;)

 

I agree that criticism can be a constructive part of an artists development, and in our forum we might tend to avoid criticism for the sake of being nice. But criticism is only constructive at the right dose. You should keep that in mind.

 

This is kind of trying to water down the whole issue. The pivot/origin point has to be aligned with the mesh and the floor level, to allow basic flexibility and fast work, period. And it requires almost zero effort to do this. Move the pivot, go back to mesh level, move it back to 0,0,0 - done. Leaving it the way it is now is simply a mistake, it undermines the concept of modularity, as mesh alignment is harder and takes longer than necessary. This really is the basics of that concept, and arguing over this is pointless. It's like wondering whether water really boils at 100 °C. And trust me, mappers who will come here from other communities are very familiar with the concept. Games from past 15 years shipped with editor have been using modular stock meshes.

 

Again, this is not personal attack on Springheel, I'm sure he'll do better next time. Besides, there's nothing wrong with making mistakes, how else you're supposed to learn? Pretending that you're not making mistakes is worse IMO. Btw. right now I'm trying to design modular meshes for my first location, and I know how hard it is to do it properly. I already spent a lot of time taking screenshots from e.g. Dishonored and browsing through UT3 maps to remind myself how to design possibly most flexible tileset, that will work in all scenarios I can think of.

 

Sorry, AluminumHaste, I promise this is my last post in this topic. I just thought it was worth to clarify that. If you find this offensive (and I really don't mean it), feel free to delete it. I'll be making my point in more constructive way from now on, showing you my modular meshes in the WIP thread.


Edited by Judith, 01 March 2017 - 05:55 AM.


#45 AluminumHaste

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 08:10 AM

calvin_headexplode.jpg

 

I think a certain someone is lucky I don't have admin privileges right now.....


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#46 Bikerdude

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 08:11 AM

LOL.



#47 Sotha

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 08:12 AM

calvin_headexplode.jpg
 


Just imagine the TDM Insider HEADlines... bwahaha. Cough. Sorry....
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#48 Bikerdude

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 08:12 AM

 showing you my modular meshes in the WIP thread.

Yeah you, less talk moar screenshots of the pretty pretty..


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#49 New Horizon

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 08:56 AM

I don't think there is anything wrong with offering an honest appraisal guys.  Just because of recent blow ups, lets not discourage nor be afraid of letting people offer honest critique.  I don't see anything offensive in Judith's posts.   It's stuff that is very good to know moving forward.  Does it suck we didn't have more hands on deck to catch that stuff and tweak things before release?  Sure, but we know that changing everything now would break any existing work. :(  It would be a terrible mess to clean up, even this soon after release....especially for poor Spring as I'm sure A New Job relies heavily on the modules.


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#50 Bikerdude

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 09:07 AM

Does it suck we didn't have more hands on deck to catch that stuff and tweak things before release?  Sure, but we know that changing everything now would break any existing work.

This will hopefully change in the very near future...





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