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#1 Sotha

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 12:14 PM

In order to not flood the comment/status system, I'll open a thread for the topic.

Feel free to resume commenting here.

 

A crude copy of the discussion so far:

 

Sotha

Terrorist attack now in Stockholm? Will this never end? :( Fieldmedic, you ok?

 

Goldwell
There is one common denominator among all of these attacks in Europe. But unfortunately addressing the issue on ANY level results in a negative pushback.
If Europe pulls it's head out of the sand and sees the forest for the trees they might be able to do something about it.
Until then the senseless killings keep on happening and until then...
#prayforStockholm

 

Akira
And what common denominator might that be then?
Also, as someone who lives in sweden, which happen to be one of the most atheist/secular countries in existance: keep your pointless "prayers" to yourself.

Goldwell
Akira i'm sorry but you completely missed the point of my message.
First of all the praying part I mentioned is a mock on the idiots who think that #prayfor*insertcityname* does anything.
Secondly the common denominator is quite obvious if you really think about it.. out of all of these attackers what have all of these people shared in common?

Akira
They were driving heavy trucks?
Why don't you say what you mean instead of implying?

Sotha
At this point it could be just as well an Islamic Idiot or Retard Rightwinger. Or just some Random Loser who decided to replicate horrible stuff that has been done.
Let's wait for more info before jumping to conclusions.
Oh, and let people pray to whatever god or entity they want if it makes them feel better at this time of crisis.

Goldwell
Yes Akira, the issue is heavy trucks. Obviously.

Springheel
We don't know who is responsible yet, but let's not pretend like Islamic terrorism isn't a problem in Europe, or that it hasn't been responsible for multiple, similar attacks in the past year. It will still be a problem even if this turns out to be unrelated.

Goldwell
That's exactly right.
And by the way I wish to clarify my earlier points by stating that I am referring to radicalised Muslims not ALL Muslims.
Part of the problem as I mentioned in my OP is that any form of discussion around this results in backlash rather than discussion which is what this problem needs. No need to turn a blind eye to something that is an obvious problem that needs addressing.

Sotha
I think it may be an exaggeration to say that blind eye is given to the problem.
Islamic extremists (or any extremists, BTW) are a complex problem. It has not beed solved, because it is not obvious how to solve it.
You can't just go and ask everyone whether they are an extremist about doing something horrible, then expel them or put them in jail and call it a day.
Anyone have good, working idea what to do about it? Go to politics and you will get a lot of.....a lot of votes after stuff like this.

Goldwell
I'm not saying that I have the answers, just that i'm not oblivious to the problem.

Springheel
This should really be a thread.

Sotha
I do not think anyone is oblivious to the problem after events of few last year.
There are plenty of people who are offering simple solutions to complex problems and I guess we know how they work.

Akira
Trump, LePen, golden dawn, jobbik, putin and all the other nationalists scare me a lot more than terrorists do.

Springheel
The terrorism, and the general political response to it, is part of the reason those people are gaining power.

Anderson
There's a difference between Trump and Dughin inspired conspirologist/anti-globalist/pro-Russian opportunists.

Sotha
Lotsa discussion here, I'll start a thread


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#2 jaxa

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 01:05 PM

So, is Fieldmedic OK?

 

The truck is an essential part of the modern economy, without which your lifestyles would be more expensive and less comfortable. Commercial drivers are in demand almost everywhere in the world. The truck is also a nearly-unstoppable killing machine. As dangerous as the kinetic momentum of a truck can be, deliberately crashed hazmat loads could do even more damage.



#3 kano

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 03:00 PM

I guess this means we can look forward to yet more attacks on effective encryption for the public, as well as more pushes for the implementation of back-doors by governments. (This post is brought to you from a fully encrypted Linux machine)

 

They never let a perfectly useful tragedy go to waste to push their agendas; that's how we got the Patriot Act here in the states.


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#4 stumpy

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 07:17 PM

although trump has used 59 sticks to stir a very dangerous hornets nest.



#5 demagogue

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 08:40 PM

This current trend of Islamic terrorism has a specific historical & cultural context, wahabism from the 1950s which got mass appeal from 1979 and has most recently fed off the post Arab Spring chaos in Iraq & Syria and the online promotion campaign. It's not specifically even targetting Europe, since it's happening in the middle east too. It's happening by individuals or small groups in their own surroundings on their own initiative, without real central direction.

So how does one fight an enemy like that? There's no leadership to target, no line of communication to cut (although cutting ISIS's YouTube and Twitter accounts helped a little probably). You have to go straight to the level of ideas and inspiration.

From the stories I've read, these people's families know when the person is getting radicalized and are dismayed. So there should be some kind of system to work with the families to have some kind of intervention. It's not unlike what families go through trying to deprogram someone caught up in those abusive cults. That'd be my approach to it, because there's not any way to even find these people. They aren't going to training camps or buying arms. They're watching videos and stewing in their own rooms. Going through the families is the only real in-
road IMO, and maybe community leaders. You have to kill the idea at its roots. You can't hope to just keep everyone possibly inspired by it out, just logistically that's an impossible task.
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#6 nbohr1more

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 10:35 PM

So how does one fight an enemy like that? There's no leadership to target, no line of communication to cut
(although cutting ISIS's YouTube and Twitter accounts helped a little probably).
You have to go straight to the level of ideas and inspiration.


While there is no formal leadership, for over a decade the media has been reporting on the Saudis, Qatar, and other UAE
nations that are funding them at the levels that rival military funding in the first world. We need to stop turning a blind eye
to our "closest ally" Saudi Arabia and get their nationals and Muslim Brotherhood agents out of our military infrastructure and
deep state. Oil prices be damned. We also need to lock up Dick Cheney, George Bush, and whomever else decided they would co-opt
our government to keep Oil money flowing when Texas ran out of wells.

Stop fighting proxy wars for the UAE.

Stop selling them weapons.

Freeze all their assets worldwide.

Smoke them out.
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#7 kano

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 11:51 PM

So how does one fight an enemy like that? There's no leadership to target, no line of communication to cut (although cutting ISIS's YouTube and Twitter accounts helped a little probably). You have to go straight to the level of ideas and inspiration.

Attempting to censor these groups might result in more violence though. If they feel as though their message is being suppressed, they may be more likely to use extreme methods to get it across; methods which can't be deleted or censored.



#8 Sotha

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 01:39 AM

They caught the suspect. According to the news it looks like ISIS inspirated work: the suspect had uploaded ISIS propaganda and stuff on facebook.

Perhaps some kind of early warning system would help, for example people could report social media activity to the officials, so that they have a list of people about to radicalize. For example, in Finland, worried friends reported a woman planning a school shooting. The police intervened in time and she was put to psychological care.

But still it would be impossible to avoid stuff like this, because the police does not have the resources to monitor all would-be-nuts all the time, and they cannot be put to jail before they do something stupid. Also, putting propaganda to social media cannot be a reason to jail people.

So stuff like this will happen again, and what liberal democracies can do is just persevere, I guess. Starting some "let's hate foreigners"- campaigns will only make it worse. Hate brings more hate and increases the likeliness of radicalization.
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#9 jaxa

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 02:55 AM

people could report social media activity to the officials, so that they have a list of people about to radicalize.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi

 

You might catch some low hanging fruit here and there. Or you might whip some up yourself. But most real plots will go unnoticed because angry and depressed people posting on social media are just everywhere. And the smart ones who are more ideological than disturbed won't leave a convenient trail of online breadcrumbs.



#10 Anderson

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 04:00 AM

Why is liberalism the default approach to fighting terrorism? As long as there is a handful of theocratic dictatorships like Iran that promote anti-american sentiments, continue to flirt with Russia - the civilized world has all the justification not to go hugging Muslims without reasonable suspicion. Think about it. In Europe a lot of them, 70% maybe aren't born in Europe. It's their burden to make the effort to integrate and the duty of the government to check them.
Human rights has priorities. You can't talk about LGBT when people might die like that.

In that sense, of course Trump's wall is silly. But his current of thought is a much needed cold shower for Europe. Just like Brexit in a way. Fortunately for us, situations of crisis make true democracies only stronger. That is when totalitary, authoritary regimes stagnate and wither.

UAE and Saudi Arabia as nbmohr1more said, exist. But only for the same reasons as Egypt with Al-Sisi. Yet It's an internal thing for those countries to change like Tunisia or Algeirs into democracy. It takes time, struggle and more stability.
TL:DR when the muslim civilization won't be forced anymore to choose between Shia, Sunni or one dictator clan versus another - that is when the civil war between sunni and Shia stops and more Arab countries rally for something that makes sense for the civilised world, that is human rights and secularism. It takes time.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#11 lowenz

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 04:47 AM

If you believe in.....civilisation :D

Or if you believe that civilisation could be achieved without a mankind-wide "act of force" as a whole mind of some kind.

 

I can't believe real civilisation is possible with the classic "limited" approaches ("ultimate" dictatorships - Hitler, Stalin, etc - included).

 

Muslim terrorists are the "nationalism without a nation who can't die" representers. And they are proud to be the "past" remnants (as every nationalist does).

You must show these guys something more attractive than "to be the lasters" (it's why they attract so many "foreign fighters").


Edited by lowenz, 08 April 2017 - 04:54 AM.

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#12 Judith

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 05:31 AM

The thing is, you can't kill the idea. And you have to fight it with arguments, knowledge, and patient explanation. Not with force, as this just adds martyrs to the cause (e.g. that #punchnaziintheface movement is the most ridiculous idea I've ever seen). This is very hard and tiresome, and our brains are lazy; we like simple explanations of things, where there are none. And there's no easy roadmap to democracy, regardless of the region, it never worked that way, not in Middle East or in Africa, or anywhere else. Hell, even in theoretically democratic countries, like Poland, there are groups and layers of society that are invisible to the media and politicians, just waiting for the right time to emerge as a political force. They live in smaller towns or rural areas, where you don't see them. Having a democratic government doesn't automatically mean those radical, uneducated groups just go away. That is especially true if you live in a big city; you tend to think in "city terms", and the world seems to be this nice extension of a municipal, democratic way of life. Unfortunately, that's not how it is.


Edited by Judith, 08 April 2017 - 05:32 AM.


#13 Anderson

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 05:41 AM

 

You must show these guys something more attractive than "to be the lasters" (it's why they attract so many "foreign fighters").

Foreign fighters are a glorified minority in these groups. From Caucasus to Syria to Afghanistan's Taliban. 90% are locals in these conflicts.
 

 

The thing is, you can't kill the idea. And you have to fight it with arguments, knowledge, and patient explanation. Not with force, as this just adds martyrs to the cause (e.g. that #punchnaziintheface movement is the most ridiculous idea I've ever seen). This is very hard and tiresome, and our brains are lazy; we like simple explanations of things, where there are none. And there's no easy roadmap to democracy, regardless of the region, it never worked that way, not in Middle East or in Africa, or anywhere else. Hell, even in theoretically democratic countries, like Poland, there are groups and layers of society that are invisible to the media and politicians, just waiting for the right time to emerge as a political force. They live in smaller towns or rural areas, where you don't see them. Having a democratic government doesn't automatically mean those radical, uneducated groups just go away. That is especially true if you live in a big city; you tend to think in "city terms", and the world seems to be this nice extension of a municipal, democratic way of life. Unfortunately, that's not how it is.

 

Quite on the contrary. Western liberalism is a lazy slacking off to bear no responsibility for what goes on in external policy in the Middle East and elsewhere.
​That's why a healthy, pragmatic centrist balance between right wing and left wing ideas is a sine qua non point where we'll find ground to stand up to the terrorist and migrant crisis. Equilibrium and common sense. Priorities.
​In that regard new Central and Eastern European democracies have a very profound feel of the dangers and steps to take for the purpose of avoiding old mistakes. A thing that your country understands and reacts to adequately. In the same way that Romania or the Baltics understood it.

The issue is more with Germany and Merkel pedantically insisting on an absolute and extensive human rights concept towards migrants. If in the past it was National-Socialism, now it's the same machine going for the other extreme. That's what's scary. We'll see what the elections bring.

And totally agreed, democracy is a highly individual thing for each country.


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 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#14 Judith

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 06:42 AM

The thing is, there's no such balance, and probably never were. I always thought, viewing the world through my municipal way of life and university education, that my country is a like 50 years backwards, but that's mostly because of the wars and the communist occupation period. And generally, I thought we were going in the right direction, just waay too slow for me, having seen how polite and citizen-friendly the government can be in the west (my country is still more like a predatory state). Well, that was just the surface.

 

Since the far-right won the election, they began dismantling every fundamental democratic mechanism that isn't working in their favor, thinking that state = them and their party only (just like one and only communist party). Apparently, there's no defense mechanism against that, so they were successful. The constitution and constitutional tribunal are basically not legitimate, voted on/elected in the middle of the night, violating basic democratic rules – who does such shit in a civilized country, in 21st century? That encouraged other radical movements, like neo-nazis, to vent their frustrations and display their "power" publicly. I was shocked how many people actually surfaced with such conservative, xenophobic views. More and more people started to wear t-shirts and hoodies with national symbols from the WWII and slogans like "death to the enemies of the state" (what fucking enemies Poland has in 21st century??). There are more and more incidents with foreigners being assaulted, or even people just speaking foreign languages. Like there was this case of a Polish professor, who was punched in the face just because he was speaking German, while talking to his colleague in a tram. There's this substantial group of infantile patriots, who think Poland will be a power if it gets rid of all the foreigners. Those "patriots" clearly played truant during history lessons in primary school, otherwise they'd know that the two significant periods in history, when this country was actually a power to recon with, was in the Reformation Period, and Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. Both times of great tolerance towards other countries, and religions, with booming economy. Still, there are whole cities, especially along the eastern border, where neo-nazis seem to be very influential, with ties to lawyers, business execs, etc. Even in my city, which is in the central-western area, there were a few "legally conducted" neo-nazi marches. Fortunately, there were like 30 people at best, but you could hear their anger and frustration, that was both ridiculous and terrifying experience. That's the other extreme you speak of in my country now, and I'm not sure we've learned anything as a nation, not from history books.

 

I see similar things happening in UK and US now too, so this is kind of failure of education, on a generational level now. Older people tend to get more radical with age too, those forces combined can be very dangerous, as we see now.



#15 Anderson

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 07:07 AM

The thing is, there's no such balance, and probably never were. I always thought, viewing the world through my municipal way of life and university education, that my country is a like 50 years backwards, but that's mostly because of the wars and the communist occupation period. And generally, I thought we were going in the right direction, just waay too slow for me, having seen how polite and citizen-friendly the government can be in the west (my country is still more like a predatory state). Well, that was just the surface.

 

Since the far-right won the election, they began dismantling every fundamental democratic mechanism that isn't working in their favor, thinking that state = them and their party only (just like one and only communist party). Apparently, there's no defense mechanism against that, so they were successful. The constitution and constitutional tribunal are basically not legitimate, voted on/elected in the middle of the night, violating basic democratic rules – who does such shit in a civilized country, in 21st century? That encouraged other radical movements, like neo-nazis, to vent their frustrations and display their "power" publicly. I was shocked how many people actually surfaced with such conservative, xenophobic views. More and more people started to wear t-shirts and hoodies with national symbols from the WWII and slogans like "death to the enemies of the state" (what fucking enemies Poland has in 21st century??). There are more and more incidents with foreigners being assaulted, or even people just speaking foreign languages. Like there was this case of a Polish professor, who was punched in the face just because he was speaking German, while talking to his colleague in a tram. There's this substantial group of infantile patriots, who think Poland will be a power if it gets rid of all the foreigners. Those "patriots" clearly played truant during history lessons in primary school, otherwise they'd know that the two significant periods in history, when this country was actually a power to recon with, was in the Reformation Period, and Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. Both times of great tolerance towards other countries, and religions, with booming economy. Still, there are whole cities, especially along the eastern border, where neo-nazis seem to be very influential, with ties to lawyers, business execs, etc. Even in my city, which is in the central-western area, there were a few "legally conducted" neo-nazi marches. Fortunately, there were like 30 people at best, but you could hear their anger and frustration, that was both ridiculous and terrifying experience. That's the other extreme you speak of in my country now, and I'm not sure we've learned anything as a nation, not from history books.

 

I see similar things happening in UK and US now too, so this is kind of failure of education, on a generational level now. Older people tend to get more radical with age too, those forces combined can be very dangerous, as we see now.

 

According to some Romanian media that shouldn't be much of a problem when Poland successfully lustrated old elites that collaborated with communists, leaving only some people in the justice system such as castes of judges having any influence that damages the credibility of the system.
​The nationalist resurgence is all over the place today. But that doesn't mean the Russian sympathizers won't stop being marginal groups in Poland, Romania and elsewhere - which is a good thing. Today Hungary suffers from that.

 Today the Visegrad Group is more relevant than ever for changing the EU and these countries obviously have differences with Germany in how it should be done. That's the explanation I see with the new party in Poland coming to power. Good thing neither Poland nor Romania are in the Eurozone for that regard. Today we are the fastest growing economies in the EU.  The catch is that by looking at the Visegrad group you can see much more American influence that benefits us all as a whole. IMHO the American model is the best to follow. It doesn't mean copy/paste by no stretch of the imagination. My country is still in the 1930's with mafia wars.

Balance comes with time and pressure at opportune times to consolidate the institutions based on rule of law​ when 2 or more clans are fighting. That's how Romania sentenced their Prime Minister and how the current party at government can't do what it wishes when the people and the civil society knows where their country belongs and what the future of the nation is. Rendering by the way the whole political class outdated. Including the opposition and the Angela Merkel-eschy president Klaus Iohannis.


 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#16 Springheel

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 07:55 AM

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This current trend of Islamic terrorism has a specific historical & cultural context, wahabism from the 1950s which got mass appeal from 1979 and has most recently fed off the post Arab Spring chaos in Iraq & Syria and the online promotion campaign. It's not specifically even targetting Europe, since it's happening in the middle east too. It's happening by individuals or small groups in their own surroundings on their own initiative, without real central direction.

So how does one fight an enemy like that? There's no leadership to target, no line of communication to cut (although cutting ISIS's YouTube and Twitter accounts helped a little probably). You have to go straight to the level of ideas and inspiration.



The first thing is to admit that we are fighting an idea. This is not an issue about poverty, or mental illness, or political grievances, although all those things might play a role. This is about an ideology.

Once you realize you are fighting an idea, it becomes _extremely_ important to talk about it. Frequently. In multiple venues. From every conceivable position. And most importantly, without fear of reprisal.

Unfortunately, this is not what is happening. The extreme left is determined to shut down any criticism they don't agree with through cries of "Islamophobia!" or "racism!"   Name-calling and screaming protests have taken the place of reasonable conversation.  Muslims who are attempting to fight radical ideas of martyrdom and jihad within their own religion are called "anti-Muslim extremists" by the extreme left (https://www.theatlan...tremist/505685/)  and are blocked from speaking at universities.  People with reasonable concerns about immigration are shouted down as "bigots".
 
Ideas cannot be fought when you shut down conversation.   They won't be fought when people are afraid to speak up for fear of having their reputation dragged through the mud. 
 
A good start would be to start empowering those who want to have reasonable discussions about the problem.  Stop giving support or cover to anyone, from either side, who wants to shut down conversation.  Stop listening to people who use name-calling to attack opponents, rather than actual arguments.  Maybe then we'll actually be able to make some progress.
 
What happens in this forum is a good model for what needs to happen in society at large.


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#17 Spooks

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 01:03 PM

Why is liberalism the default approach to fighting terrorism? As long as there is a handful of theocratic dictatorships like Iran that promote anti-american sentiments, continue to flirt with Russia - the civilized world has all the justification not to go hugging Muslims without reasonable suspicion. Think about it. In Europe a lot of them, 70% maybe aren't born in Europe. It's their burden to make the effort to integrate and the duty of the government to check them.
Human rights has priorities. You can't talk about LGBT when people might die like that.

 
The civilized world should not, in fact, have justification to distrust Muslims. Rather, it should be wary that generalizing something - say, for example, all followers of the religion to the radicalized few who commit heinous acts of terrorism - is a terrible logical fallacy that erodes the very meaning of the word "civilized".
 
You pull that statistic out of nowhere - I'm not asking for a source because I don't want to bog down the discussion, but it's still bothersome. 
 
Say I agree with the idea that Muslims, as a minority, should be fighting upstream for their right to human decency, even then you omit the role of the common man. You're making it sound as though he is absolved of all responsibilities and it is the Other's fault for upsetting the status quo.
 
You can talk about LGBT issues at the same time as terrorism as the two aren't mutually exclusive. Hell, I don't think they're mutually inclusive either. I don't think I've ever seen a trans ISIS member, but if someone has hit me up. At any rate, I feel LGBT rights is overtly an American talking point, the majority of European countries are still very homophobic.
 
 
 

In that sense, of course Trump's wall is silly. But his current of thought is a much needed cold shower for Europe. Just like Brexit in a way. Fortunately for us, situations of crisis make true democracies only stronger. That is when totalitary, authoritary regimes stagnate and wither.



Fear mongering for profit and power should never be commendable.

Edited by Spooks, 08 April 2017 - 01:06 PM.

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#18 Anderson

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 01:37 PM

 
The civilized world should not, in fact, have justification to distrust Muslims. Rather, it should be wary that generalizing something - say, for example, all followers of the religion to the radicalized few who commit heinous acts of terrorism - is a terrible logical fallacy that erodes the very meaning of the word "civilized".
 
You pull that statistic out of nowhere - I'm not asking for a source because I don't want to bog down the discussion, but it's still bothersome. 
 
Say I agree with the idea that Muslims, as a minority, should be fighting upstream for their right to human decency, even then you omit the role of the common man. You're making it sound as though he is absolved of all responsibilities and it is the Other's fault for upsetting the status quo.
 
You can talk about LGBT issues at the same time as terrorism as the two aren't mutually exclusive. Hell, I don't think they're mutually inclusive either. I don't think I've ever seen a trans ISIS member, but if someone has hit me up. At any rate, I feel LGBT rights is overtly an American talking point, the majority of European countries are still very homophobic.
 

 

The right for getting a foreign citizenship or to get the status of refugee/asylum is not absolute. It is supported by both the European Convention and the 1951 Refugee Convention from Geneva. The general idea goes down to the fact that unless your country isn't going to mistreat/torture/kill you - there's no objective reason why you should be a refugee. That is why Afghani nationals often get deported. Right now the EU at least needs a functioning, well balanced mechanism to distinguish people with a shady background/economic migrants from real people who are harmless, innocent, and who are seriously, realistically going to integrate in the European civilization by getting a refugee status and eventually, maybe a citizenship. NOT​ people from regions in Syria, Afghanistan, Lybia that were never touched by war or who are not under direct danger. They do get their money somehow to travel right? It's discussable.

 

It is imperiously counterproductive to talk about LGBT rights when priorities of the world are set to fight terrorism, dodge the migrant crisis, build sustainable peace and maintain sustainable economic activity against Chinese dominance  and et cetera, et cetera. In Europe it is quite obvious how shifting the public dialogue from important points - ghettoes with migrants in the middle of France and Germany to secondary issues as LGBT is not clever. Personally I don't see why Homosexua/LGBT/Transgender is even worth discussing when even developed hi-tech Japan doesn't care to legalize it. We're wasting our time.​ They aren't worth our attention. It's just a whim and an extreme liberal left intellectual delusion.

 

 

 

 

Fear mongering for profit and power should never be commendable.

 

I did not mean profit. I mean that the world is changing and that the EU institutions and Western democracies in Europe fail to realize that the migrant and terrorist crisis need a different approach. Hence many countries refusing to take refugees with the quota system.
 


Edited by Anderson, 08 April 2017 - 01:38 PM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#19 lowenz

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 02:20 PM

The thing is, you can't kill the idea.

But you can take it on another level.

It's really the world-wide-tribe feeling that impresses terrorist minds.


Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.


#20 Judith

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 06:27 PM

Whoa, I wouldn't get that far, saying saying that LGBT problems aren't problems. They are, but it's kind of hard, trying to discuss both types of problems: those at the time of war and those at the time of peace. War problems will always seem more urgent and important in that context.


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#21 stumpy

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 07:24 PM

Its actually a holy war, with the radicalised Muslims believing that the whole world should be Muslims just like them, if you do not convert to their version of Muslim (there being several versions, as they also kill the ones who are not members of their specific version) then they think you are better off not being here any more. So they then shoot you or blow you up, and they then commit acts of martydom to take as many infidels with them as possible as trophy's for Allah's pleasure, and so that when they (the terrorist) are in paradise they will have 15 virgins a day forever.

 

So you want to try and convince a Muslim that they are not going to get to everlasting paradise with 15 virgins a day,

 

Actually its rather a silly reason to kill everyone who is not like them.


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#22 lowenz

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 03:00 AM

The virgin propaganda is related to woman-fearing men, men raised by woman-hating mothers (a slave hates another slave).

You must destroy the chain, 'cause it's "simply" a psychological chain.

 

But I think it's a minor aspect, the main problem is the "epic" narration of Islam birth. The anthropological "greatness".


Edited by lowenz, 09 April 2017 - 03:03 AM.

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.


#23 Anderson

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 03:37 AM

Don't forget that in many countries Sharia law applies. I'm convinced that the likelihood of recruiting terrorists has a lot less fertile ground in a secular country. Neither does Europe live by church cannons exactly. It took centuries to overcome the Catholic/Protestant war. That's what muslims have now with the sunni/shia differend .

Edited by Anderson, 09 April 2017 - 03:38 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#24 Kurshok

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 03:39 AM

Islam, I believe, needs to be made to modernize the same way European Christianity did. If they refuse, then boycott them. Create eco-friendly oil alternatives and let China deal with them like they did the slave owners in Tibet. I'm socially liberal, and that's why I despise organized religion. As for Anderson, I must say I find your comment on LGBT being given civil rights as "a nonissue" is pretty much bullshit. If we just said "civil rights is a nonissue because rich and powerful nations do not have them", then America would still legalize slavery. Yeah, Islam is a shitty religion, but if we let Middle Eastern refugees come to America and make it clear we will NOT be theocracy, they could choose to become apostate or, at the very least, form a new sect of "Islam Lite" much like how the Catholic Church no longer has torture dungeons and Inquisitors. Basically, we have to lure the citizens away from the shitty religion toward secular humanism. Then, when enough of these moderates have been made, we put them in charge and let them deal with killing their jihad redneck equivalents. Hopefully with deadly force. Alternatively, we could kidnap every Muslim child we can find and raise them to be secularists, and make a kill on site order for every islamic head of state.

#25 Kurshok

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 03:42 AM

Addendum: We could also offer to airlift women who hate their lot in life in the middle east to Canada, if canada agrees. Basically, we can try and destroy the culture of rape and oppression Islam causes WITHOUT GENOCIDE by making sure the Middle Eastern race survives, but is no longer tainted by belief in the ways of that pedophile prophet and his shitty obsidian rock.




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