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Throwing flashbombs instead of dropping them


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#26 AluminumHaste

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:50 AM

This really is a symptom of modern gaming holding your hand constantly.

Did you know that in the Thief games, you can throw flashbombs farther by holding the use key? No where do I recall it stating that in the training mission, I just found it out by trying things.

Emergent gameplay only happens when players think for themselves


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#27 teh_saccade

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 09:49 AM

Flashbomb's bound to F for me. Compass to C. Rope arrow to V and Gas Arrow to G. Lockpicks to Z. Noisemaker's N, but a broadhead usually does the trick. (Or jumping one side and just stepping round the opposite direction as the AI turns...)

But, gotta agree - chucking a note or something like your sword across the room works well if cornered. It would be nice to be able to pick up the AI weapons - if I could trade my sword for a massive hammer, I'd use that instead of the blackjack just for fun.

 

Flashbombs tend to work better for me to get past guards before they spot (even if it does alert them, a broadhead in the other direction makes them search the wrong way), or away from them if they're chasing (though I like to fight them by pushing them into a corner with furniture and bashing them with the cosh til they run in circles - more fun than a pile of bodies).

I've never done the training mission for TDM...

Maybe it's my personal vendetta against nUbisoft, but - yep - hand holding down the corridor is the big thing and I dislike it with a passion.
That and "player feedback" for "pre-release" which ends up as a QA nightmare and simple jobs become massive bug-hunts for no extra dosh.

Manuals and maps were king back in the day - even if you did crack the game so you didn't have to enter word 21 on page 4 to play it.
Most players these days wouldn't know how to even do a simple JMP - google is god.

So much knowledge, so little understanding.

I miss BBS.

But flashbombs are great - never got the point of flashmines though... Maybe they make good distraction and escape devices if you're stuck up a wardrobe..?


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#28 AluminumHaste

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:05 AM

But flashbombs are great - never got the point of flashmines though... Maybe they make good distraction and escape devices if you're stuck up a wardrobe..?

 

Exactly for setting up traps. You could do the same thing with a flashbomb, then jump out and BJ the guard, but you can set up some elaborate traps if you're worried about someone walking in on you.


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#29 teh_saccade

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:06 AM

then jump out and BJ the guard, but you can set up some elaborate traps if you're worried about someone walking in on you.

 

:P

 

(I am cutting a glory hole in the wall between the toilets after this comment, maybe leave a readable, "meet here at 1am" and at gamePlayTime 1hr, chuck a pickpocket noble to go stand there on alert, "hello? is anyone there..?"  - sorry mate, but i'm still laughing at that phrasing - thanks for that)


Edited by teh_saccade, 21 April 2017 - 10:16 AM.


#30 Anderson

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:23 AM

This really is a symptom of modern gaming holding your hand constantly.

Did you know that in the Thief games, you can throw flashbombs farther by holding the use key? No where do I recall it stating that in the training mission, I just found it out by trying things.

Emergent gameplay only happens when players think for themselves

 

Disagreed.

 

 There's little clue or cleverness to mash buttons in random intelligent guessing of intervals to randomly, to figure out different game items and discover that suddenly​ you can throw the flashbomb and not blind yourself like an idiot. The game doesn't tell you anything. That's a problem.

Why should the player figure that out if he can't drop or throw his bow or his arrows? This is called doing a sunrise manually.

 

I love TES II: Daggerfall too for example. Lots of people hate it. But when the game asks you to dungeon crawl through 9 consecutive dungeons to look in every nook and cranny for some small stupid note, quest item or something - you realize there's a limit to everything. It's wrong. 

For the purpose of progress and evolution, today's games should be as intuitive as possible in controls for new guys. Same as with figuring out that you can carry bodies. These things should be clearly shown in the tutorial somehow.  It's one thing to master ghosting every FM you like and entirely different to hide obscure game functions behind barely noticeable hints. Hopefully to be featured in the tutorial. 

In-game hints don't always work because it depends on the mission, which lately have custom briefings and loading screens.

​ For the moment TDM is on the right track. But I'm worried why throwing flashbombs is a question that needs to be answering on the forums in the first place. This isn't esoteric, privileged knowledge. It's common sense. People who don't play often just scratch their heads. They're not used to it.

I know I'm featuring these guys a lot, but it seems there's not an issue they haven't got a relevant video on: 


Edited by Anderson, 21 April 2017 - 10:27 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#31 AluminumHaste

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:35 AM

Good YouTube channel for sure, love those guys.

 

BTW, holding use to increase throwing distance also works for ANY object you have in the grabber (players hands). this includes crates, enemy weapons, candles, slow match, keys etc.


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#32 Anderson

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:39 AM

Good YouTube channel for sure, love those guys.

 

BTW, holding use to increase throwing distance also works for ANY object you have in the grabber (players hands). this includes crates, enemy weapons, candles, slow match, keys etc.

Yes, but not your blackjack, sword, arrows or bow. Those are the default, first things to use. You also can't throw things like your portable lamp or your map neither (usually).

 A lot of items picked up and carried on yourself personally, in many FM's - especially older ones, cannot be thrown. Play a handful of those and you'll have some habits of play that won't be easily knocked down.

​There's also this thing that, why would you want to throw your keys? The most common throwable and personally carrieable item are key sets (which also, not all are throwable unless they aren't directly quest related to trigger some script or something as anything else in that nature).


Edited by Anderson, 21 April 2017 - 10:40 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#33 AluminumHaste

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:02 AM

 

Disagreed.

 

 There's little clue or cleverness to mash buttons in random intelligent guessing of intervals to randomly, to figure out different game items and discover that suddenly​ you can throw the flashbomb and not blind yourself like an idiot. The game doesn't tell you anything. That's a problem.

 

Disagreed, but I guess that's the point of opinions. :blush:

Who said anything about random button mashing? It's one button. It's not like the use button is hidden and you have to press every key to figure out which one it is.

Flashbomb use is

You can also not blind yourself by just looking up slightly when dropping a flash bomb..... As long as your POV can't see the flash point, you won't be blinded.

 

Also this:

 

Attached File  training_mission_2017-04-21_12.01.12.jpg   223.41KB   0 downloads

 

It says to throw a flashbomb, hold use key.

Go play the training mission please.


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#34 Springheel

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:06 AM

Same as with figuring out that you can carry bodies. These things should be clearly shown in the tutorial somehow.

 

 

Both already are.



#35 Destined

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:16 AM

Well, this boils down to the old problem that many (especially veteran Thief) players do not play the tutorial, as they think that they know, how a stealth game works. And then the questions on the forum start, because they suddenly need/want features that exist and are explained in the tutorial. Happened more than once and I am pretty sure that it will happen in the future.


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#36 teh_saccade

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:27 AM

Maybe when the game was installed, the tutorial mission was already loaded in - hitting "new game" (which'd be the first thing after keybinding and graphics options for me) would mean doing the tutorial (start this mission) before heading to "select/install mission".

 

It's included in the download, with the other two, is that right..?

 

Then we can go scrolling through an ever increasing list to pick at random or jump into creep's place or load tears of st lucia or one of the series like thomas porter or something or downloading everything for the tickmarks and going random or whatever (which is my way atm).

The little pop-ups in the corner might be used to better effect in order to deliver the information than an empty and uninviting hub with some doors.

If you're gonna hit big-time steam-stuff... just sayin' - maybe it's time to revamp the tutorial mission to be a tutorial mission rather than an empty training room.

 

Like... what's "frob"?
I goto melee and archery, down some boring stairs, because that's the first to the left of the book and there are crates with which idk how to interact (but I do, so I find the loot and use them to make a wall between me and the melee guard and I didn't even take a swipe and it's autoblock now, so np). It was fun because I messed about and played stupid games because... well... there wasn't anything else to do except chores...

No narrative, no purpose, I finished it and, well... I didn't have much fun doing so.

However - I love to replay thief's den because it takes a few minutes, contains everything I need to know about the game, has narrative, purpose, alternate routes and approaches once you know the place (which doesn't take long) and - if something like this was the tutorial - with the difficulty options being "tutorial", "normal", "hard" - it could be a tutorial mission AND a mission to do without having to draw swords or knock out and carry bodies or whatever...





 

// gotta admit, it was several missions before I realised I could shoulder bodies and corpses - total game-changer... Dying so much at Mount & Blade is what forced me to do the tutorial now. Brothers in arms (Ubi, not nUbi) it was part of the first mission and story - Having just completed TDM's tutorial, it is like a list of chores to complete, rather than a tutorial mission. All these things could be included in a mission similar to thief's den, where there are "live" challenges and some story and whatever... I really thing TDM's intro tutorial would benefit from a remake, especially if you are expecting many more players in the near future - it was dull. I'm sorry - that's the truth.


Edited by teh_saccade, 21 April 2017 - 11:49 AM.

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#37 Springheel

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:11 PM

The new mission in the official story (A New Job) is a "tutorial mission".  It includes the basic things you will typically have to do in missions, along with pointers about how to do them (assuming you don't play on veteran).  It includes a message about how to shoulder bodies, and a random tip about flashbombs.


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#38 wesp5

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:45 PM

The new mission in the official story (A New Job) is a "tutorial mission".

Exactly! This mission is a much better tutorial than the "Training Mission" which is boring in comparison like teh_saccade wrote. Maybe some more infos could be added to it to cover all aspects that aren't in there yet? Also as teh_saccade noticed and I already said, it's very easy to overlook both "A New Job" and the "Training Mission" once you have downloaded others. I wouldn't like being forced to play the tutorial mission each time I reinstall the game, but it should be displayed more prominently. Nobody has yet commented on my idea to add * or something else to the official mission names so they always stay on the top of the mission list! What do you think about that instead of using numbers like in my first suggestion?


Edited by wesp5, 21 April 2017 - 12:47 PM.


#39 Springheel

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:48 PM

What character is used doesn't change the part about it being a hassle for little gain.



#40 teh_saccade

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 01:06 PM

Nice to see you've already stepped on it and used a more engaging method for the tutorial/intro.

I've not seen this mission - will check it out one day.

 


Edited by teh_saccade, 21 April 2017 - 01:07 PM.


#41 V-Man339

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:44 PM

So, as the guy who actually posited the question, I actually know exactly what my personal experience and problem was.

 

I haven't had to throw anything in ages due to my playstyle. This would be easily fixed by a refresher, you see Portal and Half Life remind you of mechanics every 15-30 minutes or so, and due to the Dark Mod's nature this is not the case.

 

Other folks more privy to using thrown objects probably will not have the same issue I have, but they may also have it worse, I wouldn't know. My playstyle is indicative of a very niche audience, not of a very large one.


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#42 teh_saccade

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:22 AM

My playstyle is indicative of a very niche audience, not of a very large one.

 

 

 

My browser history displays sites catering to a very niche audience also...

But, now you know that these tricks are possible - would you remain a one-trick pony and keep playing the same way or do something like "today I'm going to try something new?".

Lately, I've been playing Farcry 2 on infamous with infamous fusion mod - decided, "i'm only going to pick up enemy weaponry and finish the game with max (minus 4 spent in tutorial) diamonds, 100% completion.
Then, speed-run it, exploiting every glitch I know.

Also - Farcry2 is an excellent stealth game. One run I took at it my accuracy was around 90% because I barely shot a bullet and those that were came from the silenced pistol at the right moments.

However, it's also fun to drive a grenade launching truck into an enemy outpost, with IED strapped to it, dive for cover and blow it up and then set the whole place on fire with molotovs and a flamethrower, before cutting everyone down with a grenade launcher and an Uzi, massive overkill...

 

 

--

I used to train and teach martial art before a car accident and one thing that an old Korean man said to me was, "anyone can adapt the tools to the situation, but a master must adapt the situation to his tools".

My interpretation is, basically - meta-gaming and not confining yerself to a single style in order to gain as broad a toolset as possible.

As a player of TDM, my toolset is dictated by the tutorial (which I did for the first time last night) and figuring stuff out as I've had to deal with it - usually cos I messed up and got caught and refuse to reload because I want to finish this mission in one go, like a master thief.

But I steal every tip I can that I read - I've always lobbed away duplicate keys / keys I've used as distraction and sometimes a dropped weapon from an AI that's had to be conked out (esp. now it's noticable) - I still shoot water arrows at bloodstains and scorch marks, even though idk if it makes any difference and sometimes forget that moss arrows won't grow when you water them (and will use a moss arrow to cross an area, even though I'm pretty sure AI sometimes don't notice it in the dark, which is weird, when they step on it - they spot ropes in the dark for sure). Actually, I think the vine arrows grow when you hit them with water? But I've only ever played one or two missions with them (they are dangerous to include in a mission, as they allow you access to pretty much everywhere inside and out the play areas...).

Mix it up V-Man - learning to learn from mistakes is a good lesson and to ignore a tool is folly when you're trying to hammer in a nail with a spoon, cos you're used to only eating refreshing foods instead of heeding the words of the almighty builder and using them fire arrows cos wtf - equipment doesn't count towards loot at the end (AND I SPENT SO MUCH ON WATER ARROWS I DIDN'T EVEN NEED).

 

Do u even flashbomb bro?


Edited by teh_saccade, 22 April 2017 - 11:23 AM.


#43 Anderson

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:43 AM

 

 

 I still shoot water arrows at bloodstains and scorch marks

 

Damn, I forgot you can do that in TDM. It was only possible and necesarry in TDS.


 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#44 V-Man339

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 05:07 PM

 

My playstyle is indicative of a very niche audience, not of a very large one.

 

 

 

My browser history displays sites catering to a very niche audience also...

But, now you know that these tricks are possible - would you remain a one-trick pony and keep playing the same way or do something like "today I'm going to try something new?".

Lately, I've been playing Farcry 2 on infamous with infamous fusion mod - decided, "i'm only going to pick up enemy weaponry and finish the game with max (minus 4 spent in tutorial) diamonds, 100% completion.
Then, speed-run it, exploiting every glitch I know.

Also - Farcry2 is an excellent stealth game. One run I took at it my accuracy was around 90% because I barely shot a bullet and those that were came from the silenced pistol at the right moments.

However, it's also fun to drive a grenade launching truck into an enemy outpost, with IED strapped to it, dive for cover and blow it up and then set the whole place on fire with molotovs and a flamethrower, before cutting everyone down with a grenade launcher and an Uzi, massive overkill...

 

 

--

I used to train and teach martial art before a car accident and one thing that an old Korean man said to me was, "anyone can adapt the tools to the situation, but a master must adapt the situation to his tools".

My interpretation is, basically - meta-gaming and not confining yerself to a single style in order to gain as broad a toolset as possible.

As a player of TDM, my toolset is dictated by the tutorial (which I did for the first time last night) and figuring stuff out as I've had to deal with it - usually cos I messed up and got caught and refuse to reload because I want to finish this mission in one go, like a master thief.

But I steal every tip I can that I read - I've always lobbed away duplicate keys / keys I've used as distraction and sometimes a dropped weapon from an AI that's had to be conked out (esp. now it's noticable) - I still shoot water arrows at bloodstains and scorch marks, even though idk if it makes any difference and sometimes forget that moss arrows won't grow when you water them (and will use a moss arrow to cross an area, even though I'm pretty sure AI sometimes don't notice it in the dark, which is weird, when they step on it - they spot ropes in the dark for sure). Actually, I think the vine arrows grow when you hit them with water? But I've only ever played one or two missions with them (they are dangerous to include in a mission, as they allow you access to pretty much everywhere inside and out the play areas...).

Mix it up V-Man - learning to learn from mistakes is a good lesson and to ignore a tool is folly when you're trying to hammer in a nail with a spoon, cos you're used to only eating refreshing foods instead of heeding the words of the almighty builder and using them fire arrows cos wtf - equipment doesn't count towards loot at the end (AND I SPENT SO MUCH ON WATER ARROWS I DIDN'T EVEN NEED).

 

Do u even flashbomb bro?

 

I leave mixing things up for ironman runs, not the perfection I know only I currently provide at the moment.

I would be covering God Hand were it not for Mike Kob doing it already, so to speak, the moment I am replaced I will probably start "casually experimenting", more or less, in the Dark Mod rather than approaching it in the almost scientific method mindset I do now.


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#45 teh_saccade

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 09:31 AM

Without knowing what God Hand nor Mike Kob doing it, I can only say that striving for perfection is a devotion of delusion.

A snowflake melting as its structure is realised.

Prussian blue was discovered by accidentally spilling blood into a pigment mix.
Nervous electrical impulse was also an accidental touch of electricity to frog's legs.
There are thousands of examples of accidental discovery - vulcanised rubber, penicillin, radiation and microwaves...
The accidental destruction of a silicon microchip resulted in a dust that still retained instruction and it found use to target cancer cells - smart dusts.

This is also part of scientific method. To make mistakes and fail.
Clinical incision and scientific enquiry are not quite the same thing.

A mistake in one might result in irrecoverable disaster (slim chance of discovery), whereas the other might result in discovery (although may appear a disaster, at first).

 

 

Yamamoto Tsunetomo said, "Aim for success, not perfection. Never give up your right to be wrong, because then you will lose the ability to learn new things and move forward with your life".

This was a radical ideaology for those rooted in bushido's sense that one must never give up the strife for self-perfection.


And that's why I throw flashbombs and keys and swords and boards and boxes and chairs and shoot broadheads into doorways and sprint one way before creeping back the other and glitch and exploit and break the mission.
I want to win and achieve all objectives with expediency and in good time - not relive the same moment until it is perfect once, constrained to a singular instance that is now past.

Again, the conversation has digressed very much from the initial context.


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#46 Destined

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 09:50 AM

Prussian blue was discovered by accidentally spilling blood into a pigment mix.
Nervous electrical impulse was also an accidental touch of electricity to frog's legs.
There are thousands of examples of accidental discovery - vulcanised rubber, penicillin, radiation and microwaves...
The accidental destruction of a silicon microchip resulted in a dust that still retained instruction and it found use to target cancer cells - smart dusts.

The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!) but “That’s funny …”
— Isaac Asimov


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